Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: kiltedcelt on May 10, 2010, 02:04:03 am
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I'll tell you right now if you're open minded continue to read on. If you're not open minded then you probably better stop reading now. You've been warned. What you read you may find offensive. I will start out by saying I'm not a hunter. I am a target shooter. With that being said don't think for a minute that I have anything against hunting. I do not. In fact I know hunters are some of the best stewards of the environment and proponents of conservation and sensible use of sustainable wildlife resources. Now with that being said I'll tell you right now I'm a zoologist, so what I'm about to write is not a bunch of PETA hype or some bogus junk like that. What really irks me is that I just read a post on another bow building forum that showed the results of what happens when humans trespass on the habitat of rattlesnakes. The rattlesnakes are the losers. I know a lot of you like to put rattlesnake skins on the backs of your bows so I'm going to give you some perspective on how and where those skins are acquired. If you haven't found that snake dead or killed it yourself, chances are you've bought it online. If you've bought it, it mostly likely was acquired by the seller in bulk from someone else. The bulk of rattlesnake skins available are harvested at rattlesnake roundups.
Rattlesnakes are caught for roundups usually by pouring or spraying gasoline into their burrows. The toxic fumes drive the snakes out where they are then captured and in many cases are held for weeks or even months without food or water while the "hunters" continue to collect more snakes for the upcoming roundup. At least one roundup I know of the "hunters" use irrigation pipe with large treble hooks to extract the snakes from their burrows. The "hunter" listens at the end of the pipe and if he hears movement he jerks the hook end around untill he's able to catch something on the hooks. Snakes caught in this manner are often so severly injured they are brought in to the roundups dead or have to be killed after being weighed and measured simply to put them out of their misery. On a side note, the gasoline used to acquire snakes pollutes the burrows so they can't be inhabited for sometimes years later and also poisons less hardy species that share burrows such as burrowing owls in the Southwest or in the Southeastern U.S. Gopher Tortoises and Indigo Snakes, both of which are endangered species.
So, now that the snakes have been acquired and have been deprived of water and starved at length, they're then hauled in to the roundups where they're dumped into pens which are sometimes so overcrowded that the snakes on the bottom are suffocated or crushed under the weight of the snakes above them. Some people will say roundups are beneficial because they remove harmful snakes and those snakes are milked at roundups to provide antivenom, so they do in fact serve some purpose. All b.s. For starters, rattlesnakes, particularly the larger species that are preyed upon for roundups - Western Diamondbacks, Eastern Diamondbacks and Timber rattlesnakes - all of these snakes are keystone species in the habitats they live in. Being a keystone species means that animal is IMPORTANT to the general health of the ecosystem they inhabit. Removing snakes from their habitats without any kind of bag limit or hunting season is irresponsible and unethical at best and downright dangerous and despicable at the worst. Furthermore, most roundups pay snake "hunters" by the weight of snakes they bring in. Thus, most of the snakes caught tend to be the largest which in the case of rattlesnakes translates to reproductive age females. Also, most snakes for roundups are acquired when they're still inhabiting dens "brumating" which is like hibernation in mammals. These snakes are often just a few weeks away from emerging from their burrows to search for mates and breed. Additionally, in most rattlesnake species the females may only breed once every two to three years. So, removing the largest adult females is detrimental to the long term health of the species as a whole and they are taken in what all wildlife biologists agree is an unsustainable manner.
Now as to the milking of snakes at roundups. Venom acquired at roundups is ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS! There is no laboratory ANYWHERE that would buy venom collected at a roundup. It is collected in a non-sterie manner, is not preserved appropriately upon extraction, and in most cases multiple species may be milked into the same container making it completely worthless. Milking at roundups is nothing more than sensationalist entertainment of the lowest sort. Finally, the skins are acquired usually by decapitating the snakes after they've been weigh out and the hunters paid off. Decapitation as a method of euthansia in snakes is approved of by NO ONE. Just a little bit of trivia for you. Because of the unique nervous system and metabolism of snakes, a decapitated head will continue to live without a blood supply from the body, exhibiting pupilary response and signs of perception of surroundings for AS LONG AS ONE HALF HOUR! I don't know, maybe it's just me but I think that sounds just a little bit cruel. Oh yeah, and snake meat really doesn't taste that good. It's rubbery, and it has tons of little rib bones in it. Pretty much a waste of time from a culinary standpoint.
So, there you have it. The skins most of you buy are probably collected from snakes slaughtered at round ups. I'm not saying that's always the case but probably more than 98 percent of rattlesnake hides available from hide dealers are going to have come from roundups. Now, onto the incidents involving snakes that were killed at a recent 3D shoot. For starters let me remind you, you trespassed on their habitat. It was their home you came into. Rattlesnakes have a rattle for a reason. The rattle is to warn off predators and other animals that would seek to molest the snake. Venom, metabolically-speaking is a valuable resource. For the snake, venom is used to acquire prey. In fact a majority of venomous snake bites are considered "dry" in that little to no venom was injected. Just because a rattlesnake bites does not mean it will inject venom every time. A study that was performed on wild venomous snakes in the Southeastern U.S. determined that all of the venomous snakes encountered in the study tolerated being stepped on and even being moved or nudged by a foot without biting. Only when they were grasped with a facsimile hand/arm did they then bite in defense. The vast majority of all venomous snake bites in the U.S. involve males between the ages of 18 - 40 and involve alcohol and having physically handling the snake.
You are more likely to be bitten by a dog than a snake, or more likely to die in an automobile accident. Snakes, when give ample opportunity will not stand their ground but will try to escape into hiding. The snakes that were killed at the recent shoot did nothing other than have the misfortune of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. For exhibiting their natural behaviors of basking and trying to defend themselves they were summarily executed. Although I would never advocate anyone attempt to remove a venomous snake unless they know what they're doing, most snakes if given a wide berth will be a danger to no one. I would suggest in future leaving alone any snake that is come across during one of these events. Make sure that everyone knows where the snake was seen so that the area can be avoided. Leave the snake alone. Appreciate it as a part of the wild nature you're out there to enjoy. Appreciate it as a beautiful and supremely adapted predator and appreciate the place it holds in the ecosystem. And of course remember YOU are in IT'S habitat.
Finally, I'll leave you with one last thing to think about. Many of the people who frequent this forum and others like it are hunters. You all SHOULD know the necessity of hunting responsibly. Bag limits, size limits, age limits are all set for a reason. They're not set to tell you that you can only take only so much, to try to impede your enjoyment of the sport, they're set so that hunting can be performed in a sustainable manner, so that there will still be more animals to hunt next year. There are currently NO seasons for hunting rattlesnakes or any species of snake anywhere in the United States. In most states rattlesnakes do not even have any legal protections. Most of the time this is based on ignorance and predjudice. Many people fail to see the benefit of snakes in the ecosystem and the vital role they play as a predator, often of mammal species that if left unchecked can have their populations grow out of control. By indiscriminately killing any snake you see you're simply acting out of ignorance and contributing to a growing abuse of a wildlife resource. I'm not against snake skins on bows. I personally don't like it as I appreciate skins in their original locations, on the snakes. However, if rattlesnakes could be harvested in a sustainable manner with hunting seasons and bag limits backed up by legitimate well researched science, I would not oppose it. I said before that hunters are some of the best conservators of our natural resources. Just think about that the next time you think about putting skins on a bow or you think about killing a snake you perceive to be a threat. Are you being a good steward? Are you responsibly using the resource? Are you doing something you can be proud of now that you know a little bit more about these misunderstood animals?
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Not at all offended, thanks for the info. I haven't bought any snake skins, but if I'm ever tempted I'll think back to this. You're far from the first to speak up in defense of snakes on this forum, many of the guys here either leave them in peace, or pick them up dead on the side of the road if they want skins.
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Well, this is something I've been wanting to write for quite some time. I just happened to see something that really pushed my buttons so to speak. I'll be the first to stand up and defend anyone's right to take a rattlesnake legally if there were to be actual established hunting seasons with bag limits, size limits, etc. I am not against the consumptive use of just about any kind of wildlife provided it is done in an ethical and sustainable manner. However, to wantonly destroy an animal is I think, unethical.
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I have been telling People here in Texas the same things for Years....Rattlers have their Place in the Ecosystem...and it is more important than the role that We play...Snakes are beneficial to the Environment...But now it has gotten to the Point that I barely see a Snake in the Canyons any more...they have about Wiped them Out...I use Snake Skins...but only Snake Skins that I acquire from Roadkill...or Snakes that Uninformed Snake Ignorant people have destroyed...I do not Buy Snake Skins....nor do I Hunt them ....I only Kill what I eat...and like You stated...there is nothing Special about Snake Meat at all....as for being Offended...not at all...more people need to realize this travesty...and do something to stop it...JMO
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Definitely haven't offended me. I am truly suprised that these roundups still go on. Arizona while certainly not perfect in it's legislation of non-game wildlife does have a YEARLY bag limit on their snakes. 4 species of crotalus are protected entirely and off limits and the other 9 are allowed to be taken live or dead between 2-4 a year depending on species. There are restrictions on legal methods of take. The biggest problem we have in AZ is commercial collectors but that has slowed drastically in recent years.
I am a very devoted herpetculturist and like you prefer skins on their rightful owners. But I do utilize the skins of roadkill and exotics who have died. It far past the time that these events are shut down for good. Good on you for attempting to bring some awareness to the problem.
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Good info! I always wondered about those roundups and how they worked. I'm too cheap to buy skins (I've used one set that were a roadkill trade) but now have another reason to not buy them ;)
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No offense taken at all Kilt. I'm no "tree-hugger" but I believe that all life has value and should be respected. I generally say a short prayer over the carcass of anything I kill. To "harvest" reptiles in such a way is mindless and soul-less. A lot of these snakes come from deep S.Texas, where many of the other predators have been killed off. Perhaps we should have a Field Mouse Round-up"?? Tom
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Informative post but I think it more appropriate in the Around The Campfire forum.
On a side note, I do disagree with your comment on humans trespassing on the Snake's habitat. They no more own the land than we do, the only difference is that humans think they own the land
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I use a lot of skins,most come from road kill or the county road crew or when I am bushhogging,I sure don't go out looking for them ,but also hate to waste a beautiful snake that has been killed in some other way. :) Like everything else they will probably stop the round up's in due time.
Pappy
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Very informative post. I ,like most here use roadkill mostly.I have a few locals that will kill snakes on sight,no matter what it is, I try to explain to them that they are as you say,part if the system, but it doesn't seem to change their minds much. They call me when they get whatever and I go pick them up.
I have a friend that goes to that roundup every year,I asked him alot of questions about it.He tells me that he tries to stay away from the main activities,not his cup of tea. Now I understand a bit more as to why! :(
Mostly goes out ,himself and one other. They drive the roads searching for road crossers,catch them, measure ,record whatever he needs,and then lets them go. He does keep a few for his pens. He will keep them a year,then take them back the following year and release them back.Says he just likes snakes. Good way to keep the wife away he tells me..ha.
All animals have a place on this land,stewardship means much more than most people care to consider.
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Thanks for posting this info. I've been considering ordering a snake skin for a bow, I suspected as much but ignored it. I defiately wont but one now. All life forms should be respected even plants and trees. Nothing should be killed unless it is absolutely nessessary.
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Thanks for your very informative post, Celt. Lots of good info that many folks probably never thought about.
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I always figured the skins looked better on the snakes, but only because I enjoy the nature beauty of a wood or boo backed bow. Good to hear those who do prefer skins do it in a responsible manner. Not surprised.
Good post. Thanks for writing. Obvious you are a zoologist. "Regular" people would have only written a couple of sentences. LOL Just kiddin. You did us a real service.
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I'm not offended. I am a retired biology teacher. I always preached that if you don't eat it...don't kill it. The chance of my killing any snake is zero.
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I have np problem with a bowyer or tanner harvesting snakes in a responsible manner.I have a big problem with roundups that just amount to slaughter. Rattlers can be aggressive if unknowingly cormered by kids or pets and don't really belong in backyards. We like them on the golf courses as they keep the rodents down. I say just like any other wildlife that humans use we need to be humane and responsible. Better tabs should be kept on thse animals so as to give them protection where needed. Steve
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I think about this myself. I bought some canebreak skins off the auction site. I mean I have never came across one in the wild. This is probably one of the most beautiful snakes in the wild. And I contributed to its extinction.
But then I flip the coin and know my great grandmother lost her ability to speak because of a copperhead. Another beautiful snake. And when I think of her and her messed up looking face from a stroke, all I can see if evil in a snake.
I am definately tore.
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I always preached that if you don't eat it...don't kill it.
My sentiments exactly Don.....that's the code I live by myself...
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Snakes are not evil. Peoples perception of snakes can be evil but the snake is only doing what snakes do.
Sorrt about your Great Grandma. Unfortunately bad things happen to good people.
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Was moving my buddies RV a couple weeks ago...and when I picked up the leveling blocks....a coontail rattlesnake crawled across my hand...if he had wanted to strike me....I would have been bit....all they want is to be left alone.....
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Wow! I'm glad I haven't been flamed. I didn't know how incendiary this sort of post could have been and the images I saw had me pretty charged up. I think I did a good job of trying to be fairly even handed in my presentation of the information. Marc - no problem moving the thread. I posted on the bow forum originally because over on the other forum that's where the images in question were posted. If you think this area is most appropriate I'll go along with that. I just hope that those who should be getting this message will still get it. It seems like I'm pretty much preaching to the choir here. I'm pleased to see that pretty much all of you appreciate and already realize much of what I've said here. I'm also pleased to see that those of you who are using skins are taking them yourselves. There's nothing wrong with making use of something like roadkill. I forget who else posted it, but the comment about snakes getting scarce in an area they go to. That is exactly what round ups are doing - eliminating the species from entire areas. When I was living in Georgia I performed research for my college thesis on the rattlesnake roundups in Georgia. My research clearly indicated that since snakes were collect for length and weight, the average size of snakes collected started to go down just a few years after the beginning of the roundups. The snake most taken for roundups in Georgia is the Eastern Diamondback rattlesnake, the largest most majestic species of rattlesnake, and the largest pit viper in the world. At one time people could still find EDRs over 7 feet in length! Not so anymore. Roundups and habitat destruction have caused it to go locally extinct in Louisiana, parts of Mississippi, and parts of North and South Carolina. And, it's clearly obvious that in Georgia it is becoming scarce because the snake "hunters" (notice I always put that in quotes, because this certainly isn't hunting as I know it). Those hunters report having to go further afield every year to collect the same amount of snakes from the year before. In the case of roundups like the one put on in Sweetwater, Texas, the same thing is happening to the Western Diamondback. I'm surprised to hear that AZ has bag limits. Does it have a season and specific allowable methods of taking the snakes? The problem with roundups is that they're so entrenched in their communities that they've become major sources of revenue. The organizers of those events don't believe they can put on an event without snakes. However, there had been roundups elsewhere around the country that have seen the light and stopped their taking of snakes. Those festivals now either celebrate the snakes and have only educational displays or have switched to celebrating something else entirely. In both cases I know of, those communities still draw thousands of people and bring in millions of dollars for their festivals. It can be done. The people putting these on need to be made to realize the impact of what they're doing so they can change their festival. ls before it's too late. The thing is, it's only a matter of time. These people can start making changes now, or they can wait until the species is imperiled enough to end up on the Endangered Species List and then face federal fines and jail time for molesting the snakes. What gets me is so many people who participate in this are hunters who should really know better.
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They used to have one of the largest Rattlesnake roundups and Gopher Tortoise races in Florida in a small town near here, San Antonio. Now the turtle races are wooden turtles with wheels and they stopped bringing the rattlesnakes in for competition. Now it is more about educational displays. And I remember growing up and seeing those big 8 footer and larger Eastern's and now you are lucky if you see a six footer.
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Just as an additional information to the topic:
I've always been interested in wildlife, and as a child I watched everything I could about wildlife in foreign parts of the world. I remember seeing several features about the creuelty of these rattlesnake roundups, including the bad environmental impact as well as the useless milking here on German television as far back as 40 years.
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a good post.we dont have snakes anywhere in ireland probably too wet here lol, but killing for the sake of killing any creature isnt right especially when the animal is part of an eco system that needs it there to keep it in place.
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I'm guilty of buying skins by mail order...and I did a little research thanks to this thread.
It seems that opposition to "hunting" during roundups has been around for a while. I was not aware of the use of gasoline, though. The gasoline is definitely a bad idea. I also didn't know that a snakes head lives on for a while after decapitation.
I watched a show some years back of a couple guys catching snakes on the surface using a snake-handler's stick and then putting the snakes in a cloth sack. They took the snakes to the round up and killed the largest ones and let the others go....after they were weighed and measured. Seemed OK.
As far as I can tell, here in Texas, the Parks and Wildlife guys are always present and seek to gather data on the snakes...including the effects of the "hunting". I think the events are intended to be educational as well as profitable. I'm ignorant, though. I've never attended a roundup.
Good topic.
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Wow! I'm glad I haven't been flamed. I didn't know how incendiary this sort of post could have been
No reason to flame you, from what I can see. You put forward a very eloquent, knowledgable and heartfelt case to a group of open-minded, caring and sincere people. It seems more and more as each day goes by, I find myself wishing the human race reverted back to a simpler way of life. "business" and the use of money is really what's killing this planet. If more people made an effort to utilise nature for what they NEED instead of raping it for what they WANT and could make money off... Ah, I feel like I'm preaching to the converted here. Most (if not all) of you guys are well ahead of me on this train of thought/way of living. I am truly envious.
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It's good to hear there are responsible sportsman and craftsman speaking out,
N2
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Not to flame you but the thread being reffered to at the other sight I feel was not wrong in anyway. Their was a dangerous snake on a path where folks would be crossing all day long, all weekend long actually. The snake was eaten and the skin was used. Good Job! Nothing like the round ups which I am very much against. Steve
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Badger,
My objection to the snake killing in that thread was that I couldn't believe that the snake could not have been relocated or otherwise avoided. I've since received a personal message from someone present at that shoot who feels that the snake could easily have been moved out of the way where everyone concerned would've been kept safe and the snake could go on it's way. Mainly, seeing that event got me thinking about snakes in general and that's when I decided to write discussing both that incident and the larger implications of using snake skins on bow backs. There are always two sides to something like this and my post on that other site has been locked because someone involved feels that my post was tantamount to a personal attack and that any further discussion would result in rancor that goes against site policy. Oh well. I feel like over here I've been met with a lot more in the way of intelligent discussion and open minds. And finally, you're right - killing one snake is not to be compared to a roundup, but at the same time I still gotta believe that could've been handled better. Had I been present (unfortunately I'm about 900 miles away), I could have easily relocated the offending snake. I actually work with venomous snakes daily as it's part of my job. Anyway, it's all water under the bridge. I just hope that by posting the thread I've been able to open some eyes to some of the hunting practices concerning snakes and give some people pause to think the next time before they kill a snake.
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It seems that opposition to "hunting" during roundups has been around for a while. I was not aware of the use of gasoline, though. The gasoline is definitely a bad idea. I also didn't know that a snakes head lives on for a while after decapitation.
-Down in Georgia the DNR and GA EPA made the use of gasoline illegal but one of the main DNR agents assured me hunters who were supposed to be digging up the snakes were in fact still using gasoline because you could smell it on the snakes. Also, for those "hunters" who would take the time to dig the snakes out of burrows, they would need to relocate any Gopher Tortoises they found. In most cases the burrows that were dug up were destroyed meaning all the snakes and other critters using those burrows would need to find other burrows and compete to use them with their current inhabitants. In the Southwest, the chief species in roundups is the Western Diamondback and they tend to den in rock crevices. As far as I know, the guys collecting snakes for the Sweetwater roundup are still using gasoline.
I watched a show some years back of a couple guys catching snakes on the surface using a snake-handler's stick and then putting the snakes in a cloth sack. They took the snakes to the round up and killed the largest ones and let the others go....after they were weighed and measured. Seemed OK.
-DNR guys that I've talked to have said most snakes that are released from these roundups are not taken back to where they were caught. In most cases they're released in the area most convenient to the person releasing them. This results in competition between the released snakes and those already present in the area where the interlopers have been released. Snakes are solitary and territorial. Releasing them outside of their range where they were caught just causes numerous unforseen impacts on the ecology of the area.
As far as I can tell, here in Texas, the Parks and Wildlife guys are always present and seek to gather data on the snakes...including the effects of the "hunting". I think the events are intended to be educational as well as profitable. I'm ignorant, though. I've never attended a roundup.
-In a lot of places where roundups occur, DNR officials are present to collect data on the snakes being brought in so they can determine whether roundups are sustainable in the long term. So far the data is not looking good. This can easily be a land-based repeat of the crash of the cod fisheries on the Grand Banks. The cod fisheries on the Grand Banks will easily need nearly something like 50 to 75 years minimum to recover from years of overfishing.
Good topic.
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Kilt, I share a lot of your sentiments. No hard feeling toward you at all. Part of the bow building culture does involve skinning animals for parts of our bows or quivers or strings. I have been furious when I have seen golfer or king snakes slaughterd for no reason believe me. Myself personally I usually move rattlessnakes out of the way unless they have a particularly nice skin that i want. In that case I take it. A red tail hawk might very well come down and get that snake anyway. So no hard feeling toward you in anyway, just trying to see the other guy represented as well. Steve
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Kilted,
While I ABSOLUTELY agree with you that we should not wantonly kill rattlesnakes, or any snake for that matter, I do disagree with you on quite a few of your statements in general. In truth relocating a rattlesnake is almost as good as killing it. Relocation programs are truly a moot point that just make people feel better, not the snake. A Friend of mine Hugh McCrystal recently published a paper on the effects of relocation in the book "Biology of Rattlesnakes". He discusses the impact of just touching the snake, let alone moving it at all. Since you are a zoologist you may find this manual an interesting and enlightening read.
In my opinion if the snake was killed, consumed and it's parts utilized it actually was better off that way with a quick death than the resultant death from relocation.
Just my opinion from one snake lover to another.
Also in reference to the regs here in AZ. No seasons, although I'd like for that to happen to protect gravid females, but we do have restricted methods of take and a yearly bag limit of 2-4 depending on species.
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Kilted,
While I ABSOULTELY agree with you that we should not wantonly kill rattlesnakes, or any snake for that matter, I do disagree with you on quite a few of your statements in general. In truth relocating a rattlesnake is almost as good as killing it. Relocation programs are truly a moot point that just make people feel better, not the snake. A Friend of mine Hugh McCrystal recently published a paper on the effects of relocation in the book "Biology of Rattlesnakes". He discusses the impact of just touching the snake, let alone moving it at all. Since you are a zoologist you may find this manual an interesting and enlightening read.
-One of my friends, Rob Carmichael wrote a chapter for that book. I agree that relocation, as in from say the trail to some area miles away is a very bad idea. However, in the instance of a snake on a heavily traveled trail, simply using a hook or the end of a bow to coax that snake off the trail, thus "relocating" it is certainly better than just electing to kill that snake.
In my opinion if the snake was killed, consumed and it's parts utilized it actually was better off that way with a quick death than the resultant death from relocation.
-I still think simply relocating the snake a couple dozen feet away from where it would have been sitting is preferable to killing it outright. I'm sure such a short distance of translocation is not what is meant the results of the study touched upon in the book you mention. I'll have to see if one of the guys I work with has a copy the book. I'd be curious to read the chapter that deals with translocation.
Just my opinion from one snake lover to another.
Also in reference to the regs here in AZ. No seasons, although I'd like for that to happen to protect gravid females, but we do have restricted methods of take and a yearly bag limit of 2-4 depending on species.
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Great post, KiltedCelt. I agree with you 100%. A lot of folks don't realize just how much the rattlesnakes keep the rodent population down. And here in Hanta Virus Land, that's a very valuable service.
I never understood the mentality behind rattlesnake roundups. And I don't really want to, either.
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Im with Nate on relocation. I leave it where it is or kill it. If there are kids in the area, a rattle snake is dead, end of story.
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The only skins I will apply to any of my bows these days are limbsations or skinz. I doubt either of these ever saw dirt before..lol
God bless,Mudd
PS Thanks for speaking out on behalf of good stewardship of the resources God gave us dominion over.
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well said! - I am a biology teacher and love seeing snakes in the wild, even after suffering a very bad copperhead bite in my garden. It can be very hard to educate people on the usefullness of snakes. I have moved 5 rattlers from neighbors yards, and have seen 1 of them nearby in the national forest after moving it. I have posted pics of copperheads killed in my yard, but have also relocated about 20 from my yard to a known nearby den site, hoping they will imprint on it and survive. If i can safely get them, i catch them, but they are often near cover or rocks near my house. ( My rocky hillside is a hibernaculum and nursery area, and I have 2 small boys, so i was very conflicted on this rather large copperhead population even before the bite.) here's a pic of a LIVE timber mentioned above. Luckily, the timbers do not show up in my yard frequently. I think NTD is right - relocation usually death of the snake, but I hope my copperheads make it.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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great post, I think someone did the same thing to the buffalo.I think every encounter with any animal in the wild is a gift and not always a target oppurtunity I always tell my girls two things there are no mean animals and don't kill it if your not gonna eat it ,or use it (with the exception of asian carp killem all ) again great post very informative
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great post, I think someone did the same thing to the buffalo.I think every encounter with any animal in the wild is a gift and not always a target oppurtunity I always tell my girls two things there are no mean animals and don't kill it if your not gonna eat it ,or use it (with the exception of asian carp killem all ) again great post very informative
One thing I've endeavored to say in some of my replies is that unchecked, unsustainable use of snakes runs the risk of causing them to go the way of the Passenger Pigeon, the Buffalo, and the North Atlantic Cod. All were species that were either driven to extinction or the brink by a mentality of greed and a wrong assumption that the resource was limitless. Roundups right now are very likely along with habitat loss to be the force that pushes species like the Eastern Diamondback and the Western Diamondback to extinction if left unchecked.
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in California,their is a one snake limit per year
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This is taken from the California Game and Fish regulations. Some snakes have a bag limit. For instance Gopher snakes and Kingsnakes are 4...DAILY!!! And look for yourself, Rattlesnakes are unprotected altogether ::)
§5.60. Reptiles.
(a) General Provisions: Only the following reptiles may be
taken under the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the
restrictions in this section. The limit for each of the species listed
below is two, unless otherwise provided. Limit, as used in this
section, means daily bag and possession limit. No reptiles shall
be taken from ecological reserves designated by the commission
in Section 630 or from state parks, or national parks or monuments.
(b) No sportfishing license is required for the sport take of
any rattlesnake.
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Postman, that's got to be quite the dilemna you are in. But at least you are doing the best you can for them considering the postion you are in.
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I have lived around rattle snakes my entire life. They can be very dangerous and unpredictable especially around kids and dogs. I love snakes, frogs, turtles and most all wild life and wouldn't even consider killing one n their own habitat unless i wanted his skin for a abow. However people and rattlers don't mix. A 3-d course is people territory if snakes stay in the bushes they will have no problem, if they wind up on or near the pathes they will be killed on sight, no questions asked, no guilt, not happy about it but they are just too dangerous to have in a crowded area. I have been struck at several times in my life, always hit my pants or boots but it is very unnerving. Steve
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I feel the same as Steve,If they get in my yard,my wife has no mercy. She will chop them up so bad I can't even use the skin and then have me check to make sure they are dead. :) :) I for sure don't go looking for them and I know some say I am invading there territory but it's my farm and they can't have it. If they stay away from me I will stay away from them.I had one bite Hannah my Lab last year at the cabin,I know you say that's what snakes do,but that's what dogs do also and I think much more of my dog than I do a snake,so the snake is on a bow. :) Very pretty and won't bite Hannah again. She still growls when she sees that bow. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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How did you treat the dog, if at all, Pappy? glad she made it. I pretty much have to assume my dog will get tagged this year - she's very curious and hasn't seen a snake yet that I know of. Hope she makes it and learns her lesson. My boys know about "boo-boo snakes " so as long as they keep their eyes open, they should be safe.
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We took her to the vet right away and they gave he a shot of something,the swelling was gone by morning,just not sure she learned her lesson. I have seen begels loose half there face from a snake bite. :) This was from a copper head,we don't have any rattlers right in the area I live.I don't know why,you can go N/S/E/OR W 10 miles and there are plenty of timber rattlers but just not in our area,odd. :) And it ant because I killed them all either. ;) :)
Pappy
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Pappy....that's funny about Hannah......not that She got tagged....but that it left such an impression....that She still remembers the Snake that bit Her.....I too hope She learned a life lesson..... but if She is anything like my Black and Tans were....She will go back for more.... >:(
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Ya I think she will also,she is just so sure she can take him the next time. :) ;D ;D
Pappy
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And She might....but them Hounds of mine would come Home time after time with Porkie Quipped so thick that they could not close their mouths....you'd pull them out....and for a week their Head looked like a Basketball.....so swelled up......but as soon as they healed....they'd go find another....go figure.... :-*
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NTN, We have a game warden that posts answers to questions in the paper, and acording to him and his experts, the take on rattlers is 1 per season.
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NTN, just double checked, bag limit on rattle snakes is 2 per speices, thats 4 per year. check out californiaoutdoors.wordpress.com/page3/?archives-list=1. it's calif Q&A
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Yep, I have problems with the Bio guys with a badge giving misinformation all the time here in AZ too. I think they forget to read their own regs. They often make it up as they go along.
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/regulations/FreshFish/ccr-t14-ch2-art4-sec5_60.html
These are the 2010 regulations
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actually, what that says is you don't need a fishing license to take rattlesnake, but just be a licensed hunter.
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Okay while I guess the most important part of this thread is bringing awareness to the problems with indiscriminate killing of rattlesnakes I really have to make a final point on the CA regs.
So Bubby, this is for you. In California, all regs concerning reptiles are covered under the sport fishing regs. In fact in no other section of the Title 14 code is the word Rattlesnake even mentioned EXCEPT to address a regional area called Rattlesnake Creek. Here again, I am citing my source and you can run a search yourself but there is nothing under HUNTING regs about rattlesnakes. A couple years ago there was a 2 a day bag limit along with the other species of snake but that was changed. The website you sourced is a Q and A not the Regs. And the mention of the bag limit on the webpage did not cite a code but instead cited a game warden.
Here ya go
http://weblinks.westlaw.com/result/default.aspx?action=Search&cfid=1&db=CA%2DADC&eq=search&fmqv=s&fn=%5Ftop&method=TNC&origin=Search&query=RATTLESNAKE&rlt=CLID%5FQRYRLT9058636119135&rltdb=CLID%5FDB496135119135&rp=%2FSearch%2Fdefault%2Ewl&rs=GVT1%2E0&service=Search&sp=CCR%2D1000&srch=TRUE&sskey=CLID%5FSSSA5697735119135&tempinfo=word&vr=2%2E0
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A rattlesnake bit this cranky old neighbor of mine. Poor snake died from it.
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Great thread,and good comments.I live in Texas where we have no shortage of snakes,both venomous and non-venomous,and have enjoyed having them around all my life.I taught my children well to identify the species in our area,but ,did,"take care of",the poisonous varieties that got near the house.I like the look of a rattler snakeskin on a bow,and get mine from a friend who is a pumper on a very large west Texas oilfield.He kills the snakes that get into his "buisness",and it usually nets me a half dozen or so a year,and I see nothing wrong with it.I very much like having the Texas ratsnakes,coachwhips,speckled kingsnakes,and many other 'neighbors",on my place,and can't remember the last poisonous snake I've personally killed,maybe 15 years ago or more.JMHO. God bless
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Just a quick note about translocation - ie. moving a problem snake. NTD had made some good points about the problems of translocating snakes so I decided to look into a little more. Since then, and conferring with a colleague at work I've had the chance to look over a few assorted journal articles regarding translocation of reptiles and amphibians. I'll spare you all the science-speak and get right to the point. This is in regards to a potential instance where you may have an event or something where a rattlesnake or other venomous snake happens to be in close proximity to the people at the event - ie. on a trail or near some area where the event will be occurring. From what I've read, simply moving the snake a couple dozen feet or so away from the problem area should cause no problem. In many instances I've encountered basking venomous snakes in areas where people would be walking along a heavily traveled path, in one such instance this occurred with a juvenile Copperhead I came across in a park near Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. In that instance and other similar ones, simply gently prodding the snake with the end of a long stick was enough to incite it to leave the trail and move into the underbrush, thus getting it out of harms way. I will never advocate someone try to pick up a venomous snake with something like the end of a bow or an arrow hook. If you do not know what you're doing - ie. you are not a trained professional, and I kid you not - I personally AM a trained professional and I happen to work with venomous snakes on a daily basis - DO NOT mess with it. Leave it alone. On second glance, it might even be a bad idea to suggest the prodding trick, but as long as the stick, bow, whatever is long enough, which ideally would be double the estimated total length of the snake, you should be able to coax it to leave in a safe manner. Also, beware that sometimes a snake may perceive that its only means of escape to a safe area such as a burrow may lay directly in your direction. A snake "coming for you" is almost never going to be intent on attacking you but is instead attempting to get past you and perceives that to be the safest way rather than moving in some other direction. Snakes are not belligerent animals. They will not wantonly and aggressively bite you unless molested. While I'm at it - a couple other things. Snakes often occur around yards or houses because the habitat is favorable either in terms of good basking spots or an abundance of prey. Look around your house and if you don't want snakes - venomous or harmless, be sure you're doing nothing to attract them. Wood piles, refuse such as old pieces of wood, carpets, or tin will all attract snakes. Also, keep debris like this away from your house. The closer things like wood piles are to your house the more likely you'll have "unwanted" invaders. Finally, I think this is probably the single best item of advice I can probably offer. If you hunt or walk around in areas where there is a lot of dense brush or areas that are prime habitat for venomous snakes, simply invest in a pair of bite-proof gaiters. There are a bunch of different varieties and while some can be expensive, it's good insurance against getting bitten. Most bites will be on extremities such as around ankles or fingers/hands/lower arm-forearm. The hand/arm injuries are almost always the result of either attempting to handle the snake or sticking your hand into something sight-unseen like an empty flower pot or some other dark, snake-friendly container or area. Also remember bites can often be dry bites, which mean little to no venom was injected. Also, a part of every outdoorsman's kit should be a Sawyer Extractor. They're not only one of the best field based methods of mitigating a venomous snake bite, they also work great on things like bee/wasp stings. Lastly, some links:
Sawyer Extractor:
http://www. sawyerproducts.com/B6B.htm
Snake chaps:
http://www. forestry-suppliers.com/drilldown_pages/view_category.asp?cat=903
These are my personal favorites:
http://www. forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=3588#
Of course always wear snake gaiters/chaps with heavy duty leather boots. Leave the flimsy nylon Timberland and Hi-tec "hiking" boots at home. Get some real, stout, leather, hiking boots that go above the ankle for added protection.
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Great advice on our venomous freinds, kilted celt. What kind of snakes do you work with? Good to see a few fellow herpers on here. In my case, the previous homeowner had used several tons of railroad ties for retaining walls, and back-fillled them with rocks, including ones on either side of the south-facing brick wall. Perfect hibernaculum / nursery after 35 years of decay. Healthy populations of 5 lined skinks and fence lizards were present also, presumably providing a nice first meal for the baby copperheads. As a herper, it absolutely killed me (mentally and physically ;D) to destroy these.
Had been a younger man, single,and able to afford going on after my bachelors in Bio, it would have made for one heck of a thesis or two - I believe from my experiences that some males were guarding pregnant females(2 cases), and pregnant females were pairing up for mutual protection in (2 cases). In total, 37 copperheads were observed over a 10 year period, with 25 or so within 10 feet of the house itself. interestingly, no newborns were found yet, but full-term gravid females were found 5 times. The smallest snake was a 12 inch juvenile, and all others were 20-34 inches.
My former professor Dr. David long, a herpetologist from Shippensburg University said this population density was remarkable for a semi-developed area, and said the construction of the house was probably on or near a large historical den site. This makes me think and hope they are slightly adaptable in hibernaculum choice. hopefully someone can relocate an entire population of coppers or timbers, and prove it can be done.
Kinda suprised on the endorsement of the suction kit though-have they done clinical trials on it? might have to get me one of those....
watch your fingers! ;)
John
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John,
The Sawyer extractor fits into that category "it can't hurt". Older style snakebite kits with the small scalpel and suction bulb are horrendous and much more likely to cause severe injury. However, the Extractor is non-invasive using only pure suction to draw venom out. I've never tried it on a venomous snake bite but I've seen it bubble out some venom from a bee or wasp sting. I carry it on that basis alone. Besides, you can play around with it and give yourself or someone else some pretty hickies. ;) That den/hibernaculum sounds amazing. I know a hibernaculum relocation was tried recently with Fox Snakes in the Chicago area. So far I don't believe it has worked that well, at least to the point that densities of snakes using the new hibernaculum were nowhere near the number using the previous site. The only venomous I work with right now are Aruba Island Rattlesnakes, Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnakes, and Mexican Beaded Lizards. I also work with an assortment of other boas, pythons, lizards, amphibians, etc.
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I have the Sawyer snake bite and insect kit. I've never had to use them but came highly recommended by a friend that dealt in poisonnous snakes.