Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on April 05, 2010, 01:44:09 am
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Back in 2005, Kenneth(Little John) invited me out to SW Colorado in the fall of 2006 to hunt elk with him. I built a bow just for this hunt; 60" sinew backed osage with kicked up static tips. She had 3 layers of elk sinew on her and the tip overlays were elk antler. Her name is ELKIE! I wrote "The Story Of ELKIE" and it was published in Primitive Archer Magazine(vol. 15, iss. 5 Oct/Nov 2007). It described the process I went through getting ELKIE ready to hunt; from stave to finished bow. At one point, as described in the article, I had a problem with the sinew turning loose on the bottom limb near the tip. I fixed that problem and a month or so later went to Colorado for the hunt.
When I left Colorado, ELKIE stayed behind with Kenneth. She performed very well in the dry climate of Colorado. Well, Kenneth had the same thing happen with him but this time it was near the handle that the sinew let loose. When I added the sinew to the bow I did not cross the handle with sinew(mistake #1).
Not long ago Kenneth and I were talking on the phone and he asked if I would repair ELKIE. Kenneth sent her back to me and after studying everything I decided ELKIE needed a complete make over. I started lifting the sinew, in one solid sheet, from the back of one limb. Only a small bit of sinew and glue remained. The other limb doesn't want to cooperate so far but I am sure will yield with a bit of steam.
Here is what ELKIE looks like now. I am documenting the whole process so I will have pics to go with this continuing story. The first pic shows the sinew sheet lifting...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE004.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE003.jpg)
I removed the thread wraps, the sheet of sinew from the back then removed the rattan handle wrap. You can also see that the sinew is holding well on the top limb. I'm hoping a steam bath will loosen it up.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE006.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE007.jpg)
Look how much darker the osage is after being exposed to the light and how light the protected areas are...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE008.jpg)
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Hey man be careful, you'll lavish endless time, effort and patience with her makeover...she'll end up so pretty all the younger men will be lookin' to steal her away!
But seriously, I like refurbishing an old friend, look forward to seeing how it goes.
Del
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Go get um Pat,if anyone can refinish it you can,Can't wait to see what you come up with. :)
Pappy
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Should come out real nice Pat. Too bad it needs a makeover but Im sure it will be even better this time :) Cool how the osage almost looks stained at the tips.
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Looking forward to see this project. That is one beauty in spite of the lifting sinew, I can't wait to see the finished product.
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Pat, if anyone can fix it you can. Jawge
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Hey Pat,
Looking forward to seeing this.:)
Randbear:)
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Looks like it will be a fun project. Good to see you at it!
J
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That back must be better Go getter done
Ron
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This won't be a speedy project by any stretch but, like you guys I'm looking forward to it too. I've only made a few sinew backed bows and learned something from each one. One thing I didn't learn until ELKIE's demise is to incorporate the sinew through the handle to join both limbs together. I didn't do that on this or any other sinew backed bows. There in no sinew on the handle. You will note that most of the set is in the handle area. This bow bends in the handle at my full draw(26"). I think Kenneth draws 29" so it bent a lot at his draw. The set was there when I gave Kenneth the bow after the hunt so she has held her own.
I have lots of shredded sinew, thanks to Tim Lathum's(woodstick) kids and the trade we made and have talked to James Parker(Robustus) about hide glues and techniques. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions for the forum and I'm interested in all input. ELKIE was made to shoot elk! I didn't have an opportunity when I was in Colorado but Kenneth will when ELKIE returns to the Salt Creek drainage one fall in the future. With luck and money ::) , I'll be there too. 8)
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Any secret tips from James about hide glue and techniques that you are able to share. ;) I'll be sinewing a shorty osage in the near future.
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Well, I wasn't wrong about taking my time with this one! ::) After lots of studying and looking over this bow I did a little heat tweaking and toothed the back again. Just before adding the 1st layer of sinew I wiped her down with denatured alcohol to be sure all oils, hand and other was cleaned off the back. I drew Elkie into reflex using a few strands of sinew around her handle and through an eye hook screwed into the 2x4 I used as a form with a piece of 2x4 under each tip. I figured I could just sinew over this piece of sinew and cut it off flush when the sinewing was done. It has held good so far.
Here are a few pics of Elkie and the beginning of her new look. As you can see I brought the sinew through the handle, unlike before. I'm sure this will add a bit more weight(not that she needed it) plus should prevent her taking set in the handle area like she had before.
So here is where Elkie stands(lays) for now. I think I'll add at least one more course of sinew or even 2 more before dressing her up in her "Sunday Go To Meeting" outfit for her trip to Colorado and hopefully another elk hunt. At least Kenneth will have a chance with her if I don't. I have documented this rebuild from removing the old sinew and snake skin to now and will continue through the entire process. I'm thinking about an update article to the "Story of Elkie" I wrote for PA a few years back. Maybe we can even get pics of Elkie at what she was intended to do from the begining...kill an elk.
Heeeeeeeres Elkie! Please excuse her lack of attire but we have to start with the foundation garmets! ;)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11001.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11004.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11003.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11005.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11002.jpg)
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She looks real good Pat. So is the sinew string that you've tied her into reflex with under the layer of sinew that you applied? Also, it looks like the sinew stops aways back from the tips - how far back is that? Will you just wrap those ends with sinew? How'd you lay it down - a center strip then working toward the edges? I have a Osage bow I'm considering sinewing...
Hope she comes out real nice!
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Parnel, Yes I tied the sinew around the handle then looped it around the hook before sinewing. The sinew goes over the tie down. It should blend in with the other sinew after it all cures out.
I don't bring the sinew up past where the tips become rigid. No need for it there and it will add extra physical weight to a non-bending section. I will wrap those ends with sinew then again with silk thread once the skins are put on. The skins will stop short too.
I started by laying a good coverage of sinew across the handle area first then went out each limb a bit at a time. Once this cures a little I will concentrate the second layer primarily down the center of the limb then probably use the 3rd layer to even up the backing before skinning.
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I wonder if the dry climate in Colorado was apart of the problem too...? Maybe more curing of the sinew was needed? Just throwing that out for consideration. What is "toothing"? Is that making the surface rough to allow for better adhering of the sinew?
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I remember this bow from way back. Seems I recollect you gathered all the materials from various members of P.A.. It won BOM then, wasn't this one of your first bows? Scott
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Scott, it was my first sinew backed bows. and yes everything in this bow came from someone else. I've made 3 or 4 sinew backed bows and still haven't had to shread sinew! ;D ::)
Snag, the dry air in Colorado did have an effect on Elkie. When I first built her she was 56#@26". After a month in our humid summertime weather she dropped to 45#@26". I mailed her out to Colorado 2 weeks before the hunt and when I got there she was back up to 55#@26" and a month after the hunt she was up to almost 65#. I think the main problem was I used Knox for the glue and I guess it didn't adhere as well as I thought it would. This time after wiping down the bow with alcohol I wet the wood with warm water, sized the back well with hide glue anf began sinewing. Hopefully this will hold up better.
You can read the original "The Story Of EKLIE" in vol 15, iss 5 Oct/Nov 2007 PA Magazine.
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Looking good Pat. That is a nice trick using the sinew tie down for reflex. I am definitely going to use that next time. Are you sure it was the knox? Could the back have had some oil or grease from heat bending?
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Yes Pat, shreading the sinew is the worst part in my opinion. I use to pay my kids to do it. ;)
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I really don't know what it was. The sinew/skin peeled off in one sheet and did not adhere well to the wood. It could have been grease/oil, finger prints, oily wood(even though I degreased) or the glue(Knox). I really don't know!
Here are a few pics of Elkie with her "skin" coming off.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE004.jpg)
and in her full glory...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00532.jpg)
Kenneth at full draw...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00543.jpg)
and on a red rock rim in Colorado...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Coloradoelkhunt063.jpg)
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Scott, Tim Lathum's kids stripped the sinew going on Elkie this time. The original sinew(elk) was shreaded and given to me by Charlie Wentz(crookedbow?) from Colorado.
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She is worthy of restoration! What a fine looking bow. How are you acquiring the hide glue? Are you making it?
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Pat, your full draw pics of your bows just don"t look right without your beard. ;D You should have had that guy take a picture of you drawing it.
Your sinew lifting looks a lot like mine did on the first try. Oil was definitely the cause of mine. I had done a lot of heat bending and didn't get the oil off good enough. I scrubbed it with dawn soap and then with acetone before redoing the sinew. The second attempt is still holding and the bow has flung a lot of arrows. I used knox both times.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC10713.jpg)
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Pat glad to see you restoring Elkie. To nice of bow not definitely doable. I've only had the sinew lift once and after that I started making sure to scratch the surface with some 80 grit sand paper. Sanding with the grain of coarse, Seems to give a little more of a foot hold for the sinew.
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Nice save!
On Osage the owen cleaner helps a lot before glueing anything on it. Wash it down well!;)
Newer used Knox gelatin, but heard it is not enough strong. Hide glue or any sweet water fish bladder glue is much better and stronger, especially the last one. Rabbit hide glue is working fine too.
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Wow Pat, this is a cool thread. That is a beautiful bow. I can't wait to see it done again. Can you over cook the Knox and have it loose some of its holding properties? I have limited experience with repairing areas with sinew but never fully backed one with it The repair I did delaminated was well and I wonder if I over heated it or did'nt get the oils off well enough. Danny
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Pat, just found this thread as I have been off line for a couple of days now. Makes my heart sing to see ELKIE getting back into shape and ready for round two. Just make sure she does not get too heavy for you to draw with all that sinue and make sure to leave a couple of weeks open in September the rest will work itself out. We need to get you that elk while we are still young. I feel much better with you making the repairs as ELKIE deserves a better repair man than me. Looks like my job might be coming back home for the summer and I have been working on my fitness program with a mountain bike. Kenneth
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I have only done a few sinew backed bows so I am learning as I go. I used hide glue this time. My friend Alan gave me enough to back a bow with. I sanded the back, toothed it ,wiped down with alcohol and began the sinewing within a few hours.
Fusizoli, I plan to make a horn bow in the near future and will probably try to use fish bladder glue or other high quality hide glue for that.
Danny, I don't know if you can overheat Knox or not. I know if the glue it too hot the sinew will shriveled up and become useless.
Kenneth, Elkie is your bow! She will be fit and ready for September in Salt Creek. I've got my bendy osage recurve with cherry bark backing and I'm making myself another "ELK" hunting bow! ;) 8) Glad to hear you'll be home soon. Just weekends at home would drive me crazy. Plus the honey do list gets bigger from one weekend to the next. ::) I'm been pulling the hills around here a bit harder when I'm out for a walk and trudging through the woods with 6"+ of snow on the ground is like having 10# leg weights on each leg. Kenneth, send me an e-mail. I tried to email you this morning with pics but got rejecter with 2 old email addresses I used.
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Pat, yea the deep snow trudging is a work out. We finally got a big dumping here, made the ranch chores intresting for a while. I will try to get the email sorted out this weekend and get you mailed. Kathie has changed hers up and I guess my new computer is not set up yet with my account. Kenneth
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my sinew was pulling loose just like that in one long sheet also. It was bright yellow every time it pulled up finally I used hard wood ash paste and put it on heavy after I used a band saw blade to rough it up and let it dry for a week then washed it off with a pressure washer the color was turned a lighter shade of gray like yellow I put on a couple layers of thinned hide glue and had the limbs warmed so the glue didn't start to jell premature after four layers and four weeks drying it pulled it's self tight and I think it will hold this time.
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Looking good Pat,glad you decided to save it. :)
Pappy
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Very cool thread, Pat! 8)
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Pappy, she was still under warrenty. ;D
I found out that the crock pot works well half filled with water and the glue in a seperate pot floating in it. Kept the glue just the right temp. I did add a small bit of water once because the glue was getting thicker so that helped keep the temps down too.
Thanks Patrick.
Wodpow, too late now. I did re-tooth the surface, sand it lightly to remove loose material and wiped well wih denatured aocohol. I waited long enough for the alcohol to evaporate before adding the first coating of hide glue. The bow was warm from being in the house near the wood stove. Sinew went down shortly after. I was particular not to touch the glue surface with my hand or finger before adding the glue. I'm hoping this is enough. Should be!
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Pat
How long had the stave been seasoning before you sinewed it?
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Marc, I don't remember exactly but I believe it was well seasoned.
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pat was this the bow you shipped around for us all to kill something or was that a massey bow?
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No Jamie, this is another bow made with stuff from others. David Knight has the Massey Medicine Bow now. You killed a deer with it, Eddie Parker killed a deer or hog and Steve Parker hunted some unsuccessfully with it. I haven't heard from David about this season.
I made this bow for my elk hunt with Kenneth in 2006.
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I love when a nice bow gets a second life Can't wait to see her back in form.
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Had a bit of a setback! >:( I was checking on Elkie yesterday and noticed the sinew at one end was lifting. Upon further investigation I noticed the same thing happening about mid limb on the other limb. What a disappointment!
I guess I'll soak the sinew off of Elkie and try again. I think this time I will use wood ash paste and hot water and do a good scrubbing before adding the sinew again. I will also rough up the surface better. My toothing plane makes small shallow grooves so I will use a hack saw blade or even very rough sandpaper first before cleaning her. I'll take some pics and post them when I do.
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Man, that is a bummer. I sure hope it works next time. Dang. ???
George
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Hoping the adage holds true, Third time's a charm.
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I messed with it today to see how extensive the bigger one is and it is at least 8" long from one edge almost all the way across. The tip is only about 1" lifted. I tried to pull the other sinew uo to see if it would just peel off and on the rest of the bow it is holding fast.
I'll have to soak the sinew off and try to recover it. While the bow is wet I will scrubb it well with wood ash paste, rince it off with boiling water and begin sinewing again. ...I think! ::)
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You'll get it Pat. I like that you don't give up on a bow.
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Ya I will give you that Pat,you are hard headed. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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Sometimes it is a blessing, sometimes a curse; just ask my wife! ::)
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Looking good pat, hopefully it all goes to plan ;D
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Thanks Siong, I'm hoping so also! ;)
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I thought I'd try peeling the sinew off the back of Elkie. With a little effort it came off in one sheet. This will keep me from having to soak the bow to remove it. I will now soak the sinew sheet to seperate the individual strands. Lucy Brows was keeping vigil just in case I forgot to pick the sinew off the floor. She has her stuffed toy squirrel handy to help her get past the disappointment! ;D
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11007.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11001-1.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11002-1.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11006.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11004-1.jpg)
Now I need to give the bows back a good cleaning and start over again. ::)
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When this happened to me, I used really hot water with Dawn dish detergent to scrub the bow. Then I wiped it off with a hot, wet towel. After it dried, I scrubbed it with Acetone. I also took a pocked knife and scored the back of the bow. That worked for me.
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Thanks Outlaw. I'm open to all suggestions. I don't want this to happen again or I can't be held responsible for my actions! >:( ::)
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You are a patient man Pat. I would have had to walk away or it would have become firewood! I wonder if by washing it it has added some moisture that needs time to come out....just thinking out loud.
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Hey Pat, here's my suggestion :o. Scrape off that hide glue, seal the back with varnish, scuff up varnish once dry, re-glue the sinew sheet back down with Tite-bond Glue. Job finished ;D! Art
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Snag, having moisture in the wood would help the hide glue sink in I believe. In the past I would allow a month between each sinew application(which also adds moisture to the wood) so that gives plenty of time for that moisture to evaporate. On this one I added two courses within a few days of each other but was going to let it dry for at least a month before stressing it.
Art, that might be the best option. I know the TBIII will stick to the sinew and the wood. On the original sinewing I used Knox for the first two layers of sinew but TBIII for the third and final layer then used TBIII for the snakeskin covering. Any particular varnish. We have satin spray poly here most of the time for Marcia's paper mache projects. Or should I use spar varnish?
Scott, I did use oil to straighten this bow but that was back in 2005 or 06. I had some sinew problems then also that I repaired with TBIII. I have used oil to straighten bow for years and on other sinew backed bows and I haven't had problems like this one or problems with tip overlays. I don't doubt that a veg oil could be absorbed into the cells. Never thought about that. I know it doesn't go very deep in the wood. I usually scrape it off while tillering. And, I don't add oil or heat to the back of the bow. I'm sure some gets on there anyway.
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I've used Tru-oil also under my sinew jobs Pat. But that takes several good coats to build up a finish. But works fine. Brush on spar varnish is probably the best but the spray Minwax spar urethane works great also. One thing about the Tite-bond glue, it seems to stick better (be sure to scuff up with sandpaper) to a varnish surface that bare wood itself...Art
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I wouldn't use sinew to hold the bow in reflex. When it gets damp it will stretch and cause shearing forces between the wood and sinew layers again as it dries. I'd use a few strands of copper wire.
Keith
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I just can't believe that glue will not adhere to this bow, maybe I just can't understand why not. Scott's theroy of it possibly being contaminated with vegetable oil from the straightening process seems reasonable but how do you know how to get it clean enough or when it is good enough or if tite bond would do better? It is wierd that it would lift this time with out even being flexed. Pat don't loose your religion over all this or spend more time and effort than you have to spare and there is no hurry to get her done right away. I do have a bunch of sinue if you need it. After all the trouble and heartbreak I feel this bow really owes us an elk and will work extra hard to make it happen. Kenneth
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Kenneth, I think I'm gonna go with Art's suggestion and glue down the sheet that peeled off with TBIII. It fits the contour of the bow perfectly so should be fairly simple to do. ::) Where have I heard that before. ;D I have 2 good courses in the sheet and will add the last "filler" course just to even things out after the TBIII has cured. I noticed the sheet is now about 1" shorter than where it was glued down. It had pulled the bow in reflex before it started lifting.
I am taking my time with Elkie. I can work on her up in the sunroom next to our livingroom and she's good sitting there where she's obvious. I can do a little here and a little there as I feel like. I'm not really pressured.
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I got the sinew sheet glued down yesterday. I wrapped it with strips of old bed sheets for a fewhours then removed that and will let her dry well before removing her from the form. I amm goinf to add a bit more sinew to even up the back before skinning her again.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewbacked001.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewbacked002.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewbacked003.jpg)
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Here's to hoping that's the last glue that bow back sees. Wonder how many hours you've played with that one?? :o Good thing it's a labor of love. ;)
George
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I don't know Pat, but maybe elkie never wanted to leave that Carolina Sunshine! ;D
I know it sure looks good to me! Can you put a mirror to the window and shine some on Indiana, please? :)