Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: yazoo on March 15, 2010, 08:46:37 pm
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first and foremost is the quality of the wood, by this I mean the earlywood/latewood ratio,,this can be good on thin or thick rings. look for a very thin earlywood and very dark and dence latewood,,make sure the stave has been split not sawned,or kerfed beware of sawn staves the longitutal grain may be violated, if the grain has been followed the stave need not be straight,,dont hurt your eyes trying to find a perfectly straight stave with backset, make sure the wood is good then straighten and reflex it,,
the next thing to look for is that the belly side point of the stave has been removed, flattened with drawknife or bandsaw,this will show all flaws on the belly side of stave, with the stave still in the pie shape the point can hide many knots , holes etc... the bark should also be removed and sealed with glue, the bark can hide many flaws, knots, cracks etc.. now to this point we have a stave with great earlywood latewood ratio bark removed and split not sawed..
the stave also needs fome info on it the date cut or split should be marked on every stave... the price also needs to be on it,, I am a firm beleaver in this,,the only reason not to put a price on something is to maybe over charge someone,,if staves are not priced ask the dealer why?
also ask about if the dealer stands behind there wood. If you get into the stave and find a problem that makes the stave unuseable will they replace it,, make sure the seller is helpful ask if they will help you with the bow,,ask if you can call or email them for help,, they should be willing to help you ensure that the stave becomes a bow,,
beware of people selling out of there trunk, most shoots dont allow selling without paying for a booth, the honest dealers will have a booth and be tax paying citizens,,If anyone can think of anything else please add,,,,several guys have asked for some help this is all i can think of right now,,,,, thank...mike mcguire
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Mike,that is great advise right there
especialy for those that are new to staves and heartwoods
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Very good advice for anyone starting their first stave bow.
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Thank you for sharing that advice Mike. Greg
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Thanks for the info Mike. You always speak words of wisdom. I really like that. And you have really good osage too. ;D
Tell
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Mike, I have to ask about this. At Brierfield Ironworks ( ASTB Spring Shoot) I sold some staves out of the back of my truck. Never heard anything about paying for a booth. Does this make me a dishonest tax paying citizen. I told everone that they can get ahold of me here or email me. I don't know allot about staves. Other than they need to be straight as possable, with as few blemishes as possable. This I did. As for the date of cutting on the stave? I let everyone know that I had just cut them. Also. Some believe in debarking and some don't. Does this mean I need to do a few of both to satisfy everyone? I even found out that a few of them would only make walking stick or kids bows. Some staves NEVER become bows for one reason or the other. It never would or will be my intent to be a dishonest person. If anyone that bought a stave from me,and feels they have been taken, please let me know. I will be more than glade to give your money back. If it sounds like I have taken offence at this, I have.... Mark Syck..... Here is my phone # too 334-312-2263
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If you notice I said some shoots dont allow selling unless you have a paid booth,,,at some shoots it is allowed even encouraged,,some shoots have trade blankets,,the guys I mentioned are the ones that go to the big shoots where you must be a dealer, and dont pay vendor fee and sneak around and sell from there truck not just wood but everything,,, I am sure you would not bring bad wood to a shoot on intentionaly,,but you said you dont know a lot about staves,,just because a stave is straight and knot free, may not be good,,,your earlywood/latewood ratio is the most important thing,,if the wood is good everything else can be overcome,,I like to remove bark,,you can do everything you can to make sure there are know defects , but the bark can hide a lot,,as far as people haveing with staves,,if you sell green wood its going to be 1 or 2 years before they find out the wood may not be good,,not trying to offend anyone,,,just trying to inform beginners so that they can can get a good piece of wood to help there chances to make a bow,,just make sure you get all the information you can on what makes a good piece of bow wood before you pass on the staves to future bow makers,,seasoned bowyers know what to look for in a stave,,,,beginners are the ones I am trying to help,,if there first experince with a stave is a bad one,, then we may loose a future bowmaker,,,,,mike mcguire
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Hilbilly 61, I don't think Mike was trying to offend anyone, Just stating what it is that he does. I kinda think it is his living so he has to abide by a few things to eat.
removing bark and sapwood and sealing a stave will only help one to sell the stave, It basically sells itself,and if there are questions then they can be answered by show and tell much easier than if the bark is left on. Most people can't look at a stave with the bark left on and read the wood.(they are much easier to haul around also)
Dating staves is something I think most of use do for our own memory,If one cuts alot of wood each year, and stacks it up ;it can get very hard to remember when it was cut from year to year.
As for selling out of the trunk, I rekon that is up to the organizers of the event and if it is allowed,ain't no different than out of the pickup or if they are laying on the ground.
Straight clear staves are always up there on a vendors / buyers list, but don't overlook the crooked nasty ones. there are alot of people who search out these staves for the challenge.
I don't sell alot of staves,but I do sell some and I try to make it as easy as I can for the buyers, to see what they are buying.
I'm sure you are an upstanding guy and not a crook, but all this advice will only help you in the long haul. ;)
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Mike- your knowledge is greatly appreciated. I bought a few staves last year from you guys at the Classic and they turned into some great bows. Everyone on here loves pics- show a picture of a good and bad early/late wood ratio....
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just got in from cutting staves today,,I will post some photos of earlywood/late wood ratios
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Sorry if I came back harsh, and being a jerk. I was just trying to do a good thing. I reckon I'm just lucky the ones that did buy them knew what they were looking for. A couple gentlemen even showed me what to look for if I wanted to sell them again. I reckon the shoot this past weekend and this post showing up was just a coincidence. Hope I didn't offend you either. I take pride in what I learn from y'all and hope to be able to learn allot more.
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GEEZ!! I wish I could find poor ossage!!! that stuff is so hard to find here in the fingerlakes region of NEW YORK state and when I could get to a big shoot I am a little worried about buying . just a question, if I may ask, what is an ossage stave worth?? I've made self bows before never ossage I've used, black locust , ash , hickory I am almost willing to look for an ossage stave that is some what floor tillered to lower the chance of failures I do realize there are risks. JW
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I for one and my son for two , appreciate anything we can learn from Mikes wisdom and hard earned knowledge.
Mike is a standup guy, spent near two days around him recently at the TBOF shoot in Florida. His helping us newbies making our very first bows was very appreciated, and all we could learn from him was too. Our hats are off to you Mike and Your Dad Ken.
Please keep posting and helpin us guys out Mike. Thank You, Ken & Dan in the N. Florida Swamps
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this is the load we got out today was a long hard day,,lots of really nice small dia osage,,(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b34/m5555/101_1590.jpg)
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thats small diameter
looks big enought to give a person a hernia to me lol
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Great advice, and for us northern folks it's good to hear what to look for in the southern woods. Yet like Hillbilly I would have to add that there are allot of good ol boys that sell out of the truck car or off the blanket in front of there tipi's around this part of the country. Doesn't mean that they are paying there taxes or doing anything dishonest.
Also things are quite diffrent here on the variety of wood. When it's yew, Vine maple, Juniper ,Service berry and such there is a multitude of things to look for. Straightness tends to go out the window and knots are just something that you cut around, or work in as character. It should be said that most white woods are almost better to be sawn then split. Just be sure you don't have it cut in such a way that causes serious grain run off. Trying to split a Yew log with allot of knots is almost instant disaster. And it tolerates saw cuts very well, and the same with Service berry and Juniper.
I guess what I'm saying is keep in mind what area and variety of trees you are considering because it's not a one rule fits all scenario.
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When it comes to osage Mike knows what he's talking about :) Anyone that has seen him at work knows this
I agree with Keenan also that sawing wood is also a viable option depends on the wood, also consider
half-eyes way he uses edge grained staves split from sawn logs. As for buying wood out of the back of a truck I have no problem
doing that either, but I won't pay top dollar and don't expect a warranty either.
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I sell a few staves myself when I have them and I don't think it makes any difference if you are buying staves out of the back of a pickup or under a beautiful shaded tent on getting your money worth on a good stave. I have had just one bad dealings on a Yew stave from a guy who sells on the big auction site. The majority of guys will make it right if you think you have been mislead. Also green staves are O.K. to buy if you like to use steam to straighten. Mike I will be looking forward to your photos on early wood to late wood ratio. It is probably the most confusing question for me when it comes to good Osage. Dean
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I looked over Mark's wood at Briarfield, even gave some stave recommendations to people standing around. At the very low price Mark was asking for his wood no one was getting anything but a good deal. He only had 5 or 6 staves and a few pieces of nice looking local bamboo.
There isn't a vendor fee at any of the shoots I attend. This would include all the ASTB shoots, the Hill shoot and Tn Classic. I guess fees are necessary for the huge shoots but I like the casual trading, bartering, hobby selling attitude at the shoots I attend.
Mike is definitely the man when you are looking for some great osage but I don't blame anyone for selling a little of their wood from time to time, done it myself a time or two. I sold 12 osage staves for $150 once just to get rid of them (got tired of carrying them from shoot to shoot) and told the buyer it wasn't top notch osage by a long shot. I pointed out to the buyer that a couple of the staves were great, a few were marginal, but the rest was only good for bamboo backed bows.
The key for anyone selling is to be honest and not take advantage of a newbie who doesn't know squat about wood.
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your exactly right eric,,you can sell different grades of osage,,just be honest about what you have got,,I did not mean to offend everyone with a pickup,, I sell out of pickup some time,,the problems I have seen at the big shoots mostly in the north,,the guys I saw were selling trashey osage against the rules of that shoot to beginners and telling them it was great,,,that is the people that upset me,, and I have been known to give away a half a load of osage to keep from hauling it home ;D
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You are right Mike. I saw a guy at a Knapp-in with a trailer load of wood i wouldn't have made fence posts out of, rotten, checked from back to belly, twisted and the like. He had one log he said he wouldn't take less than $150 for. It was cut out of a crotch and had a bunch of 3" and larger limbs sprouting from the trunk. I could tell he was the wheeler dealer type so I told him the truth when I said " I am an experienced bowmaker and you don't have anything but firewood on your trailer". His feelings weren't hurt when I told him how it was, he knew he was a fraud.
I did make a point to steer anyone I knew who was looking for wood away from him.
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I just remembered something to add to first post,,,the thickness of the rings will vary from the root end to top end,,a stave can go from great thick good ratio wood on root end to trashey at the other end of stave,,be sure to base your opinion on a stave from the top end,, not the root end
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Hey guys, I am new here and although I have built quite a few board bows, have got to admit that it's time for me to man up and try one from a stave. Now the question that I have is concerning Hickory, as I highly doubt that I have the patience and knowledge to try Osage first. I have heard though that a Hickory stave might be the first to try. Here's the question, where can I buy a Hickory Stave? Who sells them that you guys know is reputable? I have found quite a few Osage stave dealers, but am really looking for one who deals in Hickory. Being recently retired from the Marine Corps after 22 years, the last five of which in the sandbox, something tells me I need to up my obsession a bit. It's soon to be summer and although I love to fish, I love the Beer joints better,lol. A hickory stave will keep me home in the garage, making my wife very happy. lol Great to meet you all and thanks in advance.
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Mike(Yazoo) has some nice hickory staves and bow blanks, some of the best I have ever seen.
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Thanks Eric, I will send him a PM
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this is what i meant by taking the point off the belly side of a stave,,this stave looks pretty clean,,only has a slight wave,, taking this point off shows all flaws in a piece of wood,the next photo I will show what it revealed
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(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b34/m5555/101_1601.jpg)
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now after I sawed off the belly a big nasty knot,,it wont keep it from becomming a bow but its good to know its there
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(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b34/m5555/101_1602.jpg)
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Cool Mike you can actually see the knot in the wood if ya look close. This is a great thread especially for those of us that live
where osage is just a rumor. If your going to spend hard earned cash on a stave might as well know what to look for eh :)
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Thank you Eric. I didn't think I was selling any bad staves, just what I learned from when I was shooting years ago. I even left a sign that said to make an offer, and if I was out shooting, to just leave the $$ on my front seat. I know Mike wasn't directing the post at me, and I apologize If I came across badly. :-[ I hope to continue on this forum with the great advice and help of all the bowyers willing to give a new guy advice.
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Mark, I bought one of the staves you had at the ASTB shoot and want to thank you for the deal you gave me on it. I don't know sqaut about building bows but, I am lucky to have friends like Eric Krewson and the Skinner brothers who don't mind answering this beginners questions and helping me to pick a good stave to start with. I have a buddy that lives about 15 minutes away that is going to work with me on my first bow.
This site contains a wealth of knowledge and the folks here are happy to share it.......and for that I say thank you.