Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Muina on February 21, 2010, 12:13:27 pm
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Hi, I've been building a bow (Boo - Ipe - Ipe) and the glue's failed on the Ipe - Ipe glue line. I know exactly why it's failed, the scales I were using to weigh the mixture (I'm using Resorcinol Resin) stopped working just as I was weighing the hardener in so there was way too much hardener in the glue.
I was just wondering if anyone knew of any way I could purposely de-lam the bow without damaging the other two laminations?
I would rather do this than start a new bow as it's getting sold and is already quite late (I forgot how hard Ipe was, didn't give myself enough time)
Thanks
Anthony
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Oh yea, I forgot to ask, I've run out of the Resorcinol and have found a place where I can get West System Epoxy for a tiny bit cheaper. I know it can be used for bows but is it any good on Ipe?
I'm very cautious about using Ipe because I've had plenty of failed bows with various different glues.
Thanks
Anthony
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I know that recorsinol is Weather and Boil Proof...so I am not sure that Heat would help it to let go...plus you are going to have all that Glue to Scrape off when seperated too.....
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Thanks for the speedy reply.
I think it's already way above draw weight so I might as well just run the separated lam through the surface planer anyway.
I think I might just bandsaw it off and try my hardest not to run into the other lam, what do people think?
Thanks
Anthony
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I'd bandsaw it as close to the line as possible and then use the belt sander to get the rest off. That way once it all comes off, you have a flat surface for gluing again. That's what I would do. :)
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Right, I've done a little bit more research into the West System question I asked, and it seems perfectly fine to use on Ipe.
I'm not sure whether to wipe the Ipe down as I've also read that Cellulose Thinners (which I'd be using) are sometimes used to clean uncured Epoxy from surfaces. But I might as well give it a try, I've got nothing to lose really.
Good idea, the belt sander didn't even cross my mind lol.
Thanks for all the help guys, I'll see if I can get some pics up once it's finished
Anthony
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On my last redo, I used a farrier's rasp to remove the bamboo backing.
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Ok, I started again and glued the old boo backing on the new bow, that one snapped because it was bent sideways and I was trying to straighten it a bit (oops), but then I tried another bow, did everything as slowly and well as I could, and yet again the Ipe-Ipe glue line failed. So I've given up on this one for now, when I'm not making it to fill an order I'll experiment and try a bit more.
Thanks for all your help guys, I really appreciate it. As a compromise I'm going to give him an Ash backed Black Walnut (it's quite a nice bow, not what he asked for but it's stressed me out enough lol)
Thanks again
Anthony
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What type of WEST are you going to try? Remember the 105 isn't really for gluing. If you can get the G-Flex you'll be better off.
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What are you using to clean the surfaces with, before applying your glue?
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The only delamination I've had was ipe with a hickory backing using resorcinol. I don't think that I cleaned the ipe enough (I use acetone nail varnish remover - cheap and easy to get). The surface on ipe seems to oxidise and take on a patina pretty quickly after you have worked it. So I'd take care to do some thorough preparation on the srufaces. Might not have been the cause of your problem but it certainly won't do any harm!
Stan
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BGB...make sure that when You use Nail Polish Remover...that it isn't the Kind with added Oils...Use only Acetone...or Non-Oily Nail Polish Remover...I use either MEK...or Acetone any more...can't buy Toluene anywhere anymore without Permit... :(
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Oh bugger, I've got the 105 West System. How come it's no good?
I've used White Spirits and Cellulose Thinners before, but the best results I've had so far have been from Methylated Spirits. I did finally find somewhere that sells Acetone but it's in a tiny 50ml bottle that costs £1.50, and that only just lasts one bow. I've just bought some fingernail polish remover but I've just read the back and it's got added moisturiser. I can't find anywhere that sells just Acetone in reasonable quantities for a decent price! All the fingernail polish remover I've seen is either Acetone free or with added moisturiser.
I have used Ipe before, but I've never tried an Ipe-Ipe glue, I'm starting to really hate the stuff now though (even though it is my favourite bow wood :P)
This is the way I usually glue up Ipe:
I dampen a small area of a clean rag with the spirits/acetone, then rub the surface of the wood with it. I keep going until there's not colour/oils being deposited on the rag, then just do an extra quick wipe down and let it evaporate. Then I put a thin bead of glue on the surface and spread it out so that it covers the whole area and I use inner tube to clamp the lams together on a straight and sturdy form (no R/D or recurve for now) to stop any warping or bending.
Please tell me if there are any problems with my glueing methods or equipmwnt or anything, or is it just bad luck?
Thanks so much for everyone's help, I really hope I can sort this whole Ipe thing out because I absolutely love working with the wood.
Thanks again
Anthony
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Just a thought actually, if I the Acetone took longer to evaporate than I expected, would that affect the glue?
Also, is the procedure the same for cleaning when using Titebond III? I have some of that and I've heard plenty of success stories with that, but when I did a glue test on it, the line didn't seem to hold
Thanks
Anthony
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What are you doing for the glueing surface? Is is baby but smooth,or does it have some roughness to it?
can you get your hands on some Urac? If so get it,sand your glue joints with 36 grit or use a toothing plane.It will hold.
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Muina, if you can not find Acetone at a hardware of paint store, you might try an autobody paint shop. It is used to clean the metal before applying paint. Denatured
Alcohol from a paint store will work as well for removing oils from the wood. Good luck!
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Lombard:
Thanks, I think my friend'll know where to get some in that case, he's just finished a college course in Motorbike Mechanics and recently had a job at a Motor Art place!
I think Denatured Alcohol is Methylated Spirits isn't it? I'm not sure about that, I'll check up on it.
Timo:
I'm just planing it flat and then treating it. I've had a look for some Urac, but the nearest place I can find it is Flybow which is in Ireland I think? And they dont state shipping until you've ordered and I don't want to end up paying £20+ just for the P&P.
I'll do a little bit more searching and I'll update if I find any.
Thanks for the input
Anthony
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Could be Muina, I only know it as denatured though. When I used to build boats, the wood to be bonded got more than a cursory wipe down, and really got a good scrubbing with the Acetone, or Alcohol. Whichever was at hand at the time.
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Methylated Spirits is one form of Denatured Alcohol, but all denatured spirits are not Methylated Spirits, it depends on the denaturing agent.
Craig.
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Thanks, that's saved me a load of bother lol.
I can probably skip the search for Acetone now then. If I mix the two just to be safe will it affect the wood/glue/each other?
Thanks
Anthony
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Muina,
I believe one way of denaturing alcohol is by adding acetone, so there should not be any trouble.
Craig.