Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: half eye on January 24, 2010, 06:03:28 pm
-
Just finished up a couple of bows for a trade and was looking for some more "trouble" when I ran across these bows. They are both Native American, and one is from the Smithsonian and the other I believe is from the Peabody....those are the first two pics. It is real obvious that the BACK of the bows are "scooped-out" and seem to big for the usual cable backed bows. So as I started laying this bow out ....it occurred to me that if the Native Americans really liked using their "crooked-knives" it would be a lot easier to "scoop" the channel with that, than to flatten the entire belly side of the bow.
So thats what I'm doing I'm "carving" in the tiller on the bow's back. Will rephotograph after it's tillered...right now it's bending about 6-8 inches and I'm still reducing weight and tweeking bend.
Just thought you'd like to see what the "crazy" is up to now.
half eye ;)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I love it your single handely debunking lots facts :) Crazy as a fox Rich ;)
I'm assuming this bow is also edge grained. What type of wood?
-
Ya Dana, it's edge grain....thats what I got sooooo. It is straight grained hard maple. The limbs are 2" at mid limb and the tips are 3/4 (so it looks like that museum bow) It will be 57" NTN And I'm shooting for it to bend into the handle but a little more rigid than a stiff handle would be....I'm rounding out the small grip all around to get that effect. Right now I have it bending about 14 to 15 inches and thin limb is REAL Stout so far I'm guessing 60 maybe 65 at that distance.
Oh ya, it will never see a tiller tree either.....I'm going to stick (pun?) to a native type tillering stick to even out the bends and reduce till it suits me.....going to have a 27" draw to fit me. I think thats all the dimensions ya asked about.
half eye ;)............it aint me, think there's something in the water eh?
-
youbetchaeh ;) ;D
-
i love the way you treat "the rules"- makes me wonder if a mere mortal like me could get away with it.....
-
Yup, I was being a rebel too when I used a t stick against my mentor's advice but my t stick decided to end my rebellious efforts when IT broke while the bow was at full draw. The bow was fine but conked me in the head. I now use a rope and pulley. Tillering from the back is an interesting experiment but not something I'd do even with 1/4 sawn. The fiber violations have to be very gradual I would think. :) jawge
-
Hi. Just wondering if the two ridges left actually create two stress ridges instead of one are down centre of spine and so spread the stresses more uniformly.
Great looking idea.
Tony
-
It is amazing what you can find in those native bows if you look a little isn't it. They must have known a lot that we don't know and yet we call them primitive and ourselves smart. ::)
-
Hey fellas,
Justin: It would be real interesting to be able to talk with those guys to know what the reasons were for some of the bow designs, all we have is some of the bows....not how come?
Tonys: I really dont know for sure but I'm going to keep an eye on it as it gets the stuff shot out of it to see how it reacts (assuming it gets to be a bow) but it has allways facinated me to know "whats going on" dont know if I'll ever figure it out.
George: Just copying a style, so I really dont know about how the grain is going to react. So far I kind of like it because as I gouge out wood from the channel and then smooth it....it seems that changes to the weight and tiller are smaller than what I figured they be.....aint done yet but thats my first impression.
Elk Country rp: It's not about "rules"...I haven't been here very long and for years been makin bows out in the shed without really knowing what I was "supposed" to be doing or not doing. I'd just see some type of bow and try to duplicate it and maybe learn something along the way. Thats whats so good about all these guys on this site and the different ways they go about things....I can get a real sense for what other peoples points of view are, and their reasons for doing things.....before I was kind of living in a bubble and going along all fat, dumb, and happy.
Thanks for the comments, it's appreciated!
half eye
-
If it can be done I'll bet on you ;)
Thanks Leroy
-
that's pretty cool, Halfeye... I hope it works out i would like to see it make it, If anyone can pull it off it'd be you... :) -josh
-
half eye, good for you and have fun. Jawge
-
It looks like it just maight make it. Got it tillered in (mostly) but needs to get more bendy in the outer half of the limbs, maybe 1 or 2 inches.....right now you can feel it through the handle pretty good, and the full draw pic shows me it is too stiff in the outter half.
That full draw is really that....the arrow is a 31" (overall) I use it to check some bows I make for other people. Here's some pics of it and to be honest the limbs are getting scary thin....couldn't help it so I put it on the tree to check it's weight and it's at 40# @ 23" so I figure it's right around 50 to 52 at my 27" draw.
enjoy the photo's
half eye ;)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
...If it is starting to get too thin in the thickness, you can always tiller from the sides to make it a narrower bow i guess. I really don't know how that would affect the scooped out back though... :) -josh
-
I made a BL bow many years ago that had a natural concave area on the back in part of a lower limb. The bow lasted for a little while but it did eventually fail right where it was concave.
-
Excellent project as always.
I sure wonder why they scooped the back, Very interesting indeed. Hope you can figure it out.
-
...
Just thought you'd like to see what the "crazy" is up to now.
...
Wouldn't dare call you crazy! ....then again...maybe I should ;D ;D ;D
Really looking foreward for the finish bow!!!
-
Thanks Marc....I'm just trying to copy these Native bows....see if there was any reason for making the backs concave....after some shooting I'll find out about the longevity thing.... I'm guessing at the tiller profile even so it's sort of a crap-shoot.
TBod: I really have no idea, maybe never will.....I know the Esqiumax and Inuitt etc. would grove the back to help located the "cable" for cable backed....but even then not all did it, so I really dont know for sure...it's just got me fascinated is all.
half eye ;)
-
Rich I agree that the out half needs to bend more, I'm wondering how much set has it taken at this point?
Looking good though :)
-
Dana,
Right now it's setting at about 3/4" and picks up maybe another 1/2 of short term string follow (goes away after unbracing). hope the terminology is correct. Most of my self bows that are short usually wind up with about 2" after shooting in. Will let you know. I dont heat treat, or set in reflex or anything so the 2" is about where they reach equalibrium (at least thats what I call it. Never been a problem to me but I know some of you fellas don't like that much.
Oh ya I'm a big fat liar on that arrow in the full draw shot....actually measured it and it's only 30 1/2....not 31....photos dont lie buddy.
half eye ;D
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
What a wonderful project. Takes a real wood crafter to think outside of the box. Keep OldBow posted when this projects comes to a final stage. Quite the consideration for January Self BOM, >:D fun!
-
Half eye you are doing some great reawakening of some long forgotten bow types. Thanks for sharing your journeys. looking forward to seeing how it comes out.
-
I'm not a set or string follow fanatic but it is a good indicator as to the stress on the bow.
I'm willing to bet this bow lives :)
-
Well fellas....get yer "I told ya so" slippers on. Just couldn't leve well enough alone..... Was tweeking the tiller on the lower limb (see pic) by removing a skoshie-bit of the belly of the lower limb up from the fade....found a couple of pin knots and instead of leaving it alone I figured "what could it hurt"....well the lower limb for sure ::)
For the gore-a-phobes in the crowd there are some pics of the corpse....I did learn one thing in that I believe the scooped back was for decoration or some purpose other than tillering. This is why....no matter how much you scoop out the last 4 inches of limb tips they wont bend, and second is that if ya look at the pictures of the museum bows the channel has an even depth to it, but if you were actually tillering the channel would have to be different depths at different limb width areas.....
As allways....comments are welcomed, now that I'm done crying in my beer I turned the heat on in the shed and I'm rolling up my sleeves for round two....it's gettin personal now!
half eye ;)
-
It would help to post the pics...duh ;D
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Back to the drawing board eh ;)
-
Ya Dana....stuff happens eh ;D
-
My condolences, Half-eye. Every broken bow makes us stronger though, right? (I'll try to remember to tell myself next time)
The two raised ridges left must have been under incredible amounts of tension! Deepening the groove would only be removing wood from the neutral plane-- wood that does nothing except glue the back to the belly. Wood that's not in either tension or compression. I wonder if the groove in the bow you copied was a channel for a cord back? I think a shallow groove would be fine, but the depth should remain constant. When you were tillering the tips, probably the ridges should have been thinned at the same rate as the groove. ...but then you've got runout... If anybody can make it work, it's you.
Can't wait to follow the next adventure!
Garett
-
Hey, I'm learning here... not being critical and just want to see if I am reading this right. Looking at the full draw picture, does it look like the top limb has a, I believe you all call it a hinge, that starts about 8 inches above the handle and the top part of the limb is real flat. Just checking?
-
Well you can't really give up on a design after just one blows... Glad to hear you are starting another. :) -josh
-
Half Eye Im a firm believer that if anyone can do it you can.You do beautiful work but this should really be wild.
-
Sorry about that. Start another if you can asap. Jawge
-
OK fellas....one more time, with one change (bend through handle). Ran out of the maple that aint buried that is...so grabed a piece of white ash. Here are the pics of the new one at full draw...the second pic shows the carved channel (look near the bottom limb). Plan on getting it sanded up and shoot some braced, un-braced and full draw pics when the sun's up tomorrow. Then we'll see if I can manage to get the finish on it. Post some tomorrow.
half eye ;)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
yup if this can be done
Rich you will be the one to prove it.
you defintaly have that never say "cant" attitude. ;)
-
Damn yer a bow making machine Rich ;D
-
Dana, Sailordad; thanks.....retired, bored, real tired of that damned snowblower eh. so makin these bows keeps me out of the Mrs. hair, and the wood dont complain when it gets abused neither.....life is real good.
half eye ;)
-
i hear ya Rich
i actaully think i hate my snowblower at this point >:(
used it so damn much already,and we still have a good months to go
-
Haven't run the snowblower in 3 weks ;D Been like spring unti today >:(
-
he he he
your getting what we just got rid of
-
I wouldn't mine knowing what the mass is - if you know. (Steve Gardner Mass principle p91 TBB4)
The grouve may be making the bow lighter and increasing the arrow energy without increasing the draw weight.
Would be interesting to know what a "normal" bow would perform like then compare the performance with the grouved bow - all other things being equal.
This may show if there is a performance issue or a decoration issue.
Tony
-
Tonys,
Here are main stats on the bow: NTN= 58", Draw weight 54"@ 27", Mass weight 13 ounces. (the digital scale wavers between 12.9 and 13) Grip area is 5"L x 1&1/8W x 9/16 D
Limbs are even from the centerline of the bow and taper from 1-1/8 at the fade/ grip, to 1-3/4 at mid-limb, then down to 9/16 at the tips. The channel averages 1/8" deep as is: 1/2" wide at the grip, spreading to 1-1/8" at mid limb, and down to 1/4" at the tips.
Hope that helps some. Will post up the pics...."limb-set"...."braced"....."full draw" later today. If it ever quits snowing I can get out and "flight test the bow"....thats probably as good as I will be able to do for some sense of performance. average 10 shots and report the arrow weight and average distance for the number of shots....that is probably subjective but if it will help I'll let you know.
Half eye ;)
-
I wouldn't mine knowing what the mass is - if you know. (Steve Gardner Mass principle p91 TBB4)
The grouve may be making the bow lighter and increasing the arrow energy without increasing the draw weight.
Would be interesting to know what a "normal" bow would perform like then compare the performance with the grouved bow - all other things being equal.
This may show if there is a performance issue or a decoration issue.
Tony
I think you're on to something here... I suppose a stave with unequal tension and compression strengths could be split into Tmass and Cmass. In such a case a wood strong in tension could be grooved down the back, and one strong in compression could be grooved on the belly... Of course bevelling would accomplish the same thing to narrow either the back or the belly... What do you think Tony? The mass principle could be possibly refined by also considering back/belly distribution rather than simply inner/outer mass distributions. After all, splitting hairs is how records are broken.
Garett
-
Half, it looks like you are having a ball over there. Kind of facinating trying to figure out what the natives had in mind when they built these bows. I always like to assume they had some practical purpose beyond decoration but many times that practical purpose alluded me. I never paid much attention to detail and just made bow afrer bow after bow looking at little facets and trying to figure them out. Fun is what it is all about. Steve
-
Fellas,
Managed to get it done w/o screwing it up...so heres the pics (no nude money shots ;D) You are going to notice that the channel doesn't show up straight on but you can see it pretty well in the un-strung "back" shot FYI.
One other thing....I posted the measurements allready...but forgot the limb thicknesses which are: Thickness at the fades is 9/16" going to 3/8 at midlimb and to 5/16 at the tips.
Enjoy the pics for now.
half eye ;)
-
Sorry, I'm allways forgeting to put the pics up BEFORE I hit "post"
half eye :-\
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
That is one good looking bow, and it sure is extraordinarily special!
Great accomplishment!
-
medicinewheel,
Thanks for the compliment, I've been shooting some today and it shoots really acurately and pretty quick considering how short it is. I was shooting 650 grain arrows that are about 3" too long and it didn't seem to bother the bow a lick.
half eye
-
that's really an awesome thing Halfeye. Break one, start another and finish it the next day... I am jealous of the time you get to devote to making bows and also your resilience to set backs. Good work all around man! -josh
-
it's beautiful! i wish you were my neighbor....
-
Thanks you guys, it's kind of like Steve said, the fascination for me is in the making of them and sometimes I get my butt kicked but that don't kill the desire cause that doesn't end untill I can get it right. I've broke a bunch, built a bunch, swore at myself, swore at the wood (didn't kick the dog) thats why I like this retirement thing....and life for this old hillbilly is real good.
PS: Talking with all of you is icing on the cake to boot ;D
Half eye ;)
-
Half eye,
Looking at the dimensions that you gave - the mass principle says that for your bow a typical weight would be about 12 oz for a handle that bends. For a rigid handle it would be about 18 oz. The bow in the pictures looks as though it bends well through the handle so I would assume that the 12 oz would be correct. The groove would have helped you get down to the ideal weight for "best performance" while hopefully still being durable.
The latest pictures are great - I would not have thought that you would have put such effort into the great finish for an experimental bow.
Great job - very inspiring.
Tony
-
Tonys,
That finish is my simple hunting type and doesn't take long at all. Rubbed in one heavy coat of minwax golden oak and rubbed the stuff out of it....then two coats of lacquer thinned 50/50 with acetone....dried in 30 minuets. very lightly sanded and then dyed with the wifes food coloring....blended together and dried with a hair dryer (10 minuets) then three coats of clear spray lacquer (about 1 hour total) when it's dry (totally cured) tomorrow....it's gets a couple coats of rain-x wax. Nothin to it.
half eye ;)
-
Good tiller and good job on the finish. Jawge
-
Thanks George, The bottom limb is not that far off as it looks....I put the hide on the grip where my hand is suppossed to be right on the the top of the leather....course the dummy had to drop it down and the Mrs. said she wasn't takin no more pictures today!!!! ya know how that goes...it really does bend better than it looks....
Thanks for the encouragement, means a bunch comming from you.
half eye ;)
-
well you have done it again , beautiful bow , and something new to boot. might have to start a" half eye bow school " ,i'll bring some hickory if it'll lower the tuition :)
-
Ken 75
You my friend are welcome to anything I know.....but you wont be gettin much ;D How the heck is that walnut shootin anyway. I aint had any REAL hickory to play with, yet but heard I might be gettin some soon!!!!
half eye ;)
-
A friend of mine just bought an A&H ACS ,a high end fg r/d bow and the limbs have that scooped out belly,very little mass to the limbs.Its a very interesting bow,tho nothing to due with selfbows.
-
That's another really nice looking bow. I'm not sure how I missed this thread before, but I'm definitely impressed. I was a little confused at first, since the pics are so small, but are they strung backwards? I have to think that it was an alternate approach to trapping the limbs for a tension strong wood. Great job as usual.
-
Rich. i knew if it was possible ,you wuold be the one to figure it out.
DAMN nice bow.
im sure most of you have never realy seen one of his creations,well let me tell you there are incredible.
wish it would warm up here,our highs are like 2* above.i have a new bow i cant wait to get out and shoot the hell out of.
once i do i will post pics.
Rich,once again very incredible work :o
-
Thanks sailordad glad you liked it.
half eye ;)
-
This is a dandy bow. Very nice bendy handle one, at that. January Bow of the Month starts later tomorrow, folks! Keep up the good work! 8)