Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ricktrojanowski on January 21, 2010, 10:41:07 pm
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I roughed this one out a while ago but didn't know how to start the tillering process due to its high natural reflex. It is a Vine Maple stave with lots of character. It has about 6" of natural reflex. Way more than I'm used to. Should I try to heat some of it out on my caul? Or should I just start working it as any other stave with a more moderate amout of reflex? Any advice is greatly appreciated.
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One of the bibles argued that any more than about 3" (if memory serves) would be a bad idea. Not sure which bible, except that I don't have #4 yet, so it isn't that one.
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Rick, I'd thin it some on the belly side and heat some of it out. At least even it up
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maybe throwing some deflex, into the handle would serve to lower early string weight and would make things go smoother while still taking advantage of your natural reflex. if i remember rightly VM is some pretty tough stuff, it might be able to handle the punishment of that design.... like mullet said though try to even up your reflex a little, it will make your tillering life about a 1000x easier :P
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Interesting thread - I have a piece of BL which looks like yours but with 10" on both sides...
I would try to heat the reflex out a little and give it a deflex in the handle area.
Greetz
Cord
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Rick....I too would thin down the Limbs....heat it up....and pull that right Limb....about a foot out from the Tiller Stick down to match the Left....and go for it...that Vine Maple is some resilient Stuff...if you have never worked it before...I love it....light as a Feather...and stores energy like an old Leaf Spring does.thats one nice Snakey Character Stave...I want to see this one finished!!
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Thanks for the advice.
El D- I hear you on the VM. This is my second VM bow. The first one was a much easier piece, but I always like a challenge. The first one I did is my "go to" bow, like you said light as a feather and can really sling an arrow.
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I would do like others has said,thin a little and take some out and even it up,be careful not to thin to much,high reflex will trick you very easy into thinking it is to heavy when you first brace it.Easy
to come in under weight. Nice challenging stave.Can't wait to see what you come up with. :)
Pappy
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Rick that is a dandy. Do just like others have said, just even up a little and start working her in. I have one that is even more then that that I'm about to start in on. ;D ::)
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That's a pretty typical amount of starting reflex for vine maple. Vine Maple exists under highly tensioned conditions and "curls up" after you cut and split it. Most of that will come out but it makes for some interesting tillering in the beginning. Don't try to heat it out, that won't work with this wood.
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I'd put it on a caul and even out the limbs, maybe deflex the handle area a little bit. Be careful, I had one just like that riddled with knots on the back let loose on me at full draw. It sounded like a 12 guage shot gun when she blew.
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Ryan, I've worked a lot with vine maple and can tell you that it's a waste of time to try to heat correct such a stave until the tension has been worked out - it will just return to it's original shape. Vine maple often grows under severe tension, so much so that NW loggers treat this stuff with respect when clearing an area as it can rear back and injure you when that tension is suddently released. When you harvest such wood all that stress is relieved and it begins to curl up. This effect becomes more pronounced as the stave dries. My theory is that the tension wood contracts when stress is relieved and the wood dries. What I have found is that you need to work this tension out of the wood by essentially stretching it during the tillering process. Some here are going to say that in doing so you are inducing set into the wood. I don't believe that to be the case here as this has nothing to do with the compression wood. Either way, it's simply not feasbile to tiller a stave that maintains 6+ inches of reflex, and my experience is that you cannot heat it out.
BTW, I have never experienced this effect with any wood other than vine maple - it trully seems to be unique in this regard.
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Gordon is the guru of vine maple!
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I'd put it on a caul and even out the limbs, maybe deflex the handle area a little bit. Be careful, I had one just like that riddled with knots on the back let loose on me at full draw. It sounded like a 12 gauge shot gun when she blew.
Man, that is not what I needed to hear after the ERC explosion ;D.
Thanks all for the advice, I started thinning it down tonight and got one of the limbs bending a bit.
Gordon- To "work out the tension" Should I proceed with the usual floor tillering process as I would with a less reflexed stave. Or is there another method that you prefer? Thanks for any advice.
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just get going on it Ryan...that is going to be a wonderful bow...know you see why some people love the vine maple...it all ways has character...lets get you #2 vine maple bow done...i don't why but i love this wood...its Gordon fault..john
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Rick, proceed like you would with any other stave, but go slow and exercise well between wood removal. The wood cells will eventually relax and you should end up with a bow with between 1-2" of reflex.
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One more thing. When the stave does give up it's tension induced reflex, it will happen almost all at once. Go slow!
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Well I guess you should know Gordon, but the piece I worked with last winter seemed to heat bend pretty well for me. ??? Although I wasn't really trying to remove reflex, just evening things up a bit.
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I heated the last ones I built to line up the Tips...and also to pull some of the Tension induced reflex out of it...and it seemed to bend just fine too....no checks....no splinters lifted...seemed to bend like any other whitewood to me...in fact the Guy I bought the 4 staves from....Curt Brisky.... told me to use Heat to align the Tips..wet heat on two that were a month old...and dry on the two seasoned ones...
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Sorry I did not make myself clear. Vine maple can certainly be bent using heat. I do it all the time. What does not work particularly well is trying to heat out tension induced reflex on such a highly reflexed stave. It will eventually return to it's pre-heated state or close to it. Once the tension is worked out of the stave, however, you can easily bend the wood to do whatever you like. At least that has been my experience.
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Thanks Gordon.......I understand now......... :P
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what tool do you use when working vine maple ??
I've tried scraping with a drawknife and a spokeshave, neither of which work very well,,for me anyhow.
I reckon I just need to break out the farrier's rasp......
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I completely agree with Gordon. VM is my primary wood. I have made bows (not that many altogether) from filbert, yew and hickory but have found VM the most challenging and the one I make the most mistakes. However, they tend to have good cast, have real character, and, lastly, maybe most importantly, is the price: free.
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Sonny, the best tool I've found for vine maple is a microplane file. I use both the course and fine blades. It's almost impossible to scrape vine maple as it has so many grain swirls.
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I would steam the center (handle area) to make it more of a reflex/deflex type of bow my .02....
Brian
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Sonny
To work VM I use a Torges scraper (chair scraper). If you keep it really sharp and mess with the angle of the burr it works really well. On really swirlly grained spots I first rough the spot lightly with a Nicholson rasp then scrape.
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The Best Tool that I have found for Vine Maple is a Stanley Surform...it don't care what the Grain looks like...it just wants to cut...or like Gordon stated....a Microplane Rasp...they will both do the Trick on Vine Maple....or any Wood with swirly Grain