Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Parnell on January 13, 2010, 11:47:51 pm
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Hello,
This bow is coming along now. Got to shoot it this evening but it still needs some fine tuning, I think. I've got 50# at 27 and am pleased with that. Hackberry is super easy to work with and with that it seems kinda tough to keep the poundage up on the bow. It is 62 ntn and a pyramid. I'm wondering if the top limb needs a little more taken off toward the nock but I'm also going to be thinning the last six inches of the limbs towards the tips to try to pick up some cast. It shot well this evening, my accuracy was great with shooting this lower poundage after getting used to 60 to 65 #s. I've toasted the belly. Man, hackberry has a great smell when toasting. Anyhow - feedback wanted on the tiller. The first photo shows the stave, second just after floor tiller, then where I'm at now. I'll post more pictures as I do the finish work.
Thanks.
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Nice bow :) I have been wanting to try a hackberry pyramid.
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looking good!! i love me some hackberry. as your fine tuning you tiller get it bending a little closer to the fades, just a bit.
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Good effort. Mark a pencil line right at the end of the fades and work to get the limb bending there out to mid limb. As is your stave is doing all its bending from mid limb to the fades. Jawge
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Looking good,same as the others have said,How close are you to full draw and the weight you
want ? I like Hackberry,I will say I have found it can go away quick ,so go slow and easy from here on out. :)
Pappy
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What George said. Great looking start.
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I'd like to keep this bow at as close to 50# as possible. Will removing more wood from the fades drop the weight much? I suppose that a better tiller would increase the bows over-all durability. Better to get it bending at the fades and give it another toasting? How much weight would be lost?
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In the picture it looks like you weren't quite to draw length yet. If you are where you want to be with draw weight and length, shoot it. It will probably take a little set in the outside of the limbs, but set happens.
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Looks great. Ive got several hackberry staves waiting for me. Soon as I get time, im going to be hitting the hackberry pretty hard.
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I think we may be just in the northern range of hackberry here at Ft. Drum, NY. I'm gonna be on the lookout for some when I go fishing this summer. How do I treat the staves if I do find some? Is it a bark on, bark off, reduce the stave green, or not type of wood?
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If you cut it in the spring/early summer just peal the bark and there is you back.I always dry it off and seal the whole stave.Keep it in the dry and get it out of the weather ASAP.Then in a month or so work it down close to bow size,seal and give it another few months.It will dry pretty quick that way.Sorry for hijacking the thread. Parnell you can loose some weight pretty quick on the fads but I would rather have it well tillered and miss the weight a little,you can always pike it a little and pick the weight back up and usually the tiller won't change much when you do that. :)
Pappy
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That's how I'm going about it now, Pappy. I spent some time yesterday evening shaving just outta the fades. It's coming now. Also, I shortened the bottom limb an inch and I say it already picked up a few pounds. I may shorten the top limb a bit, but I've gotta pick up some batteries for the camera to get a good look at where I'm at right now before I take any more wood off.
I'm heading upstate this afternoon and will post maybe Sunday. Thanks for the suggestion.
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You will get there,slow and easy that's the ticket. :)
Pappy
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Nice bow Parnell. I love hackberry. Since busting my last knotty Elm Holmie, I cut a dead hackberry (probably 3-4 yrs dead) and am slowly working it down now. Amazing how wet the wood is after standing dead in the forest for so long.
Tom
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Don't pull that baby back anymore until you straighten out the tiller. IMHO. Jawge
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I had the opportunity to go visit Mullet this past weekend. What a great experience for me. It was my first chance to see another persons work and I had this project with me so he really gave me some great pointers. Boy, did I need them. He helped me to thin the tips of the bow - they were entirely too thick. He also showed me how to heat in reflex just as I would floor tillering. Up until now, I've always clamped the bow and tried to put in reflex while it was static. His method was much better. I said, "I'm over thinking this stuff" and "I've been afraid of the wood". To see him working the wood was an epiphany. I managed to put in another half inch of reflex tonight and it is holding at 3". Eddie also showed me just how much I should be toasting the wood. I haven't been giving it near enough. The bows back needed spot sanding on nicks from de-barking the stave, which I did, no more nicks, and my limb edges were too sharp. Those have been smoothed. He also hooked me up with some buffalo horn, so I'll be putting on the overlays with that and thinning the tips out. Then on to shaping the handle. I'm giving it til tomorrow evening then I'll give the belly a proper toasting and I'll let it set again overnight before I brace the bow again.
Hey Eddie, thanks again! I learned more in a couple hours with you than months on my own! There are some things you just can't learn from reading, I guess.
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Dang that bow has a nice profile :) Ya eddie is one of the good guys once ya get beyond being intimated by his totally ripped 6'2" frame and jet black hair ;) ;D
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Stephen, You are more than welcome. I had a great time, as I did the day before meeting Bjorn (swampbow). You have that bow bending nice, now. I think between that and toasting the belly you will stay in your weight range if you go sloooow on your final tillering. Just like knapping and pretty much anything else, It is easier when you can get hands on help.
Let's see some more pictures. ;)
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Thanks, Dana, I try not to be too, intimidating O:)
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More pictures will be on the way, no worries!
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You mentioned always trying to put in reflex when static. Is there a chance that you can share the method Mullet showed you to get that killer profile??? I'm working an Ash stave now, and would sure like to induce some reflex rather than go with the stave as is.
That bow is gonna be Sweet !!!
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Barebo - grease the limbs, I'm using crisco, apply heat to the limbs moving the gun around consistently, without stopping on any one spot too much. Heat the belly mostly, but also hit the sides and even back but I'm figurin you don't want to heat the back very much, just to bring it up to temperature, when the wood is warmed up flex the limb on the ground and use your leg to stabilize, keep heating the limb all around while bending it like a reverse floor tiller then keep the limb flexed while letting it cool. I guess you can either hold it steady for a minute or two or hit it with a cool wet rag to drop the temp. quicker.
I was also told to do this gradually. It shouldn't be done all at once. Do it in stages and let the bow settle for a day or so before bracing again and bending.
Anyone else that wants to add to this bit - I won't take offense to some hijacking.
Hope this helps!
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Looks like it's gonna be a nice one!
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Parnell - thanks!! I'm surprised that even after having it drawn pretty good, as in the early pics, that you can still induce reflex.
I always thought that once you've braced and drawn a bow, the back had been stretched to it's elastic limit, and the belly compressed, and that was that......?? Basically then, this method would work to flip the tips a bit ?? I've got some hard Maple that's gonna get this treatment. I put overlays on the Ash tips last night, and am wary of heat - maybe just at the fades some??
How do you get the finish to bond after coating with Crisco?? As you heat, seems like it would draw it into the wood. I made a Hackberry bow 2 yrs ago, and it was light in the hand and Quick !! Great wood. Thanks again for the method tips - Good Luck - can't wait to see the finished bow!!
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Barebo,
I had figured the same on the reflex induction. I'm speculating that it won't hold as well as it would have if I had started the stave with that at say ground tiller, but better to learn now than never. I'm hoping that toasting the belly well will help to retain the reflex. I'm wondering if different woods respond better than others when it comes to reflexing at this late in the game. Dunno. I wonder if you put some tin-foil over the overlays if it would divert the heat enough to allow you to give it some work?
I do some lite sanding after the crisco and have never had a problem with applying finishes. I haven't used tru oil, but have used others such as tung and poly. I'm kinda liking wax these days, though. Hope this helps.
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That is just fantastic. It's so nice seeing this teaching and learning. Makes me feel good. Eddie, sure does know his stuff. Now, go teach what Eddie taught you, Parnell. So nice to see. :) Jawge
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Pappy says to go slow with Hackberry as it loses weight fast. I haven't found a wood that DOESN'T lose weight fast! Call me King of the 40 Pounders!
That is a great looking bow, man. And I agree with you when you say it works easily, I love the way a good sharp spokeshave bites in and shears off those long sweet curls. To me it smells like popcorn when it's getting heated.
Tonite I am going to the Black Hills Sportsman's Banquet where I an donating a hackberry bow for the silent auction, hope they get a good price for it!
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George - I couldn't agree more !!! The time that I've spent here has been very rewarding, and the different perspectives keep it cooking. When the advice is given freely, everyone benefits. It makes for a better bow building fraternity all around!!
Parnell, what got me interested is that this Ash stave has one limb - upper - with almost an inch of natural reflex. the bottom limb is going the opposite way - about an inch in Deflex !! I'd like the bottom limb stronger of course, as it's working length is shorter, and it seems that the bottom wants to bend more on all of my bows?? Maybe when I get the long string on , I'll put some pics up.
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I toasted the limbs this evening. Just thought I'd show how much. Lightly sanded it off, but not too much. I can already tell that it stiffened up quite a bit. I think it even pulled out some of the reflex I put in by about .5". I kinda like the way it looks. Wish I could do the same with the back to camouflage it!
I'll brace it agaiin tomorrow evening.
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That's coming along really nice. :)
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That's toasted beyond what I'd expect -- Wow!!! I heated the belly of the last Ash bow that I made, just to stiffen it up a bit, but didn't get any color on the limbs. I got it really hot to the touch, and continued tiller the next day. I believe that it helped reduce string follow. I posted it a few weeks ago - "Ash bow for a Marine". We're going to have a mild weekend, so I'm going to get a Maple stave ready, and am pumped to try your (and Mullets) technique . Can't wait to see how this one braces / draws. Think you picked up any draw weight??
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Barebo - It absolutely picked up draw weight. I haven't braced or re-strung the bow yet but I will this evening and I'll see where I'm at. I was also surprised at how much more I needed to toast the belly of the bow. I had been doing it just so it began to turn. As I understand it now, it should be toasted almost to a burn but not a char. Then just sanded down lightly.
I'll see how this turns out.
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Here is a picture bringing it up to close to full draw. I've decided tonight to take it down a half inch in length off the top limb. I put together horn/osage tips that I'll look to get on tomorrow and then then the tips down. Then comes the grip.
Thoughts on tiller?
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Is it starting to bend where you want it to bend? The lower limb looks allot inches shorter than the upper limb. Jawge
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The lower is in that picture 1 inch shorter. I'm shortening the top .5" so the lower will only be .5" shorter. I think it is the angle of the picture that exagerates it...
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So the top and bottom limbs are the same length at this point. It's 60" ntn now, and that is as short as I'm going.
How does the tiller look? I can afford to give up a few pounds, so tell me what you think.
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Hard to say as the picture is not the best angle, but if anything I'm going to say a little more bend into the fades
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I'd have it bend a just a little more about 4" back from the tips. And I'd watch scraping that upper limb near the fades. It could be the camera angle but it looks like it won't take much to hinge it there. What's the weight at the draw length in the pictures? It is looking good. :)
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I've got 50# at 27", right now...
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That was the range you were shooting for, wasn't it? If it is and it shoots good, you ought to just make it look pretty and start another one. ;D
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Parnell - glad to see that you've got 'er bending nicely - looks ready to send some arrows down range !! Let us know how she shoots.
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Your fades/handle section is much longer than it need to be I'd shorten them up and free up some more working limb closer to the grip if you still have weight to give. If not just keep that in mind for the next one.
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I realized that early on, Ryano. Originally I was going to follow Osage Flatbow dimensions from TBB1 and I layed it out with those. After I shortened it up, I realized the handle and fades were too long. Oh well, I won't follow those again.
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Gotta agree on the handle riser. On mine usually my handle area and fades equal up to between 7 and 8 inches and I have big ole monkey hands too. Still a cool bow though... :) -josh
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I really like your approach here. That is a fine bow and I like Hackberry a lot but haven't had the chance to work with it much as I'd like to.
As for comments:
You could shorten that handle without losing much draw weight at all. Now that can only be if you are willing to increase your draw length a little. Based on your last photo I see a couple inches of draw left as you don't fully have it back to your cheek. But that may be your style in drawing a bow, and if it is then go no further. That bow could, if you wanted to persue it, bend more in the inner 3rd with some additional wood removed. Two inches worth of draw would be pretty darn close the amount of wood removed to get a little more bend. But thats only my guess looking at the photos and the willingness to tweak it further. You just might pick up a little additional set in the process also.
Nice job on that bow, Parnell.
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Did you finish this bow?
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My father in law has been using the leather kit to build a quiver for the set I made him. I should get it soon.