Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: kiltedcelt on January 10, 2010, 02:55:41 am
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I have a couple bows I'm finishing up. So far I've had a problem with spar urethane that wouldn't dry on Ipe (wasn't degreased and sealed beforehand), and now I'm struggling to finish up a lacquer finish. Unfortunately, I'm a perfectionist at heart and so I find myself after every coat, not completely satisfied with one (or more) areas. So, I touch up with some sandpaper and steel wool, spray again, and you know - rinse and repeat... I'm at a point now where this is the last coat (so far I think 5 coats - two brush-on and three sprayed on). For starters, I'll NEVER apply a lacquer finish ever again. Secondly, after this last coat is dried I'm simply going to buff out with 0000 steel wool and leave it at that. If there is something that looks a little off I'm just going to leave it. I struggle between wanting a flawless finish and then telling myself that this is a functional piece and doesn't need to have a completely flawless finish. In fact a few flaw might give it character (yeah - I kid myself). Anyway, I'm just wondering how all of you guys do with your finishes. Do you try to get it totally perfect or go for the "Looks good at arm's length" school of thought?
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I'm kind of like you, in that I try to get it perfect, but eventually, I'll let it go with some minor imperfections that no one but myself seems to notice. I learned from one of my employers, who did a lot of built in furniture pieces in his renovation projects, about finish sanding with oil. After spraying on the final coat of polyurethane, dry sanding between coats, we would wet sand with mineral oil, up to 400 grit. I adapted the method, but use boiled linseed oil as the lubricant, because it acts as a finish in its own right, and i will progress all the way to 800 grit. I learned of a trick for open grained wood, from a gunsmith friend who's specialty was high end gunstocks, but have never tried it myself. After final sanding and staining, if applicable, he would fill the grain with epoxy. I'm not certain if he thinned it, or just went with straight smooth on. Wiping off all the excess before it cured, he would allow it to set, and finish sand up to 800 grit. Then he would follow with several coats of hand-rubbed oil finish. Furniture wax is another option to gloss over any slight imperfections, plus it adds another layer of protection from the elements. Currently, I'm experimenting with boiled soybean oil, because it has similar polymerization properties to linseed oil, but it doesn't stink, and is completely non-toxic. I use a paste mixture of 4 parts boiled soybean oil to one part beeswax, (with a half part bacon grease just cause I had it kicking around, so I threw it in the pot) to waterproof my bows, and my sinew strings, as well as any leather I have around, my knife blades, etc. etc. As you might guess, I'm a little obsessed with finishes. Next project will be an old-school tree resin and turpentine varnish.
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It's a good question.
It's easy to get hooked into the deep shine high gloss look., which is fine in int's place.
i personally prefer the low gloss, low effort, low maintenance finishes, good old beeswax and turps wiped on with a rag.
If I use varnish type finishes I thend to thin them, wipe on sand down, wipe on sand down, repat until stisfied/bored/run out of varnish.
I still aim for the low gloss, low depth of finish effect and often still wipe over with beeswax/torps type finish.
I rarely use a brush and I hate sprats as they are so expensive, wasteful and don't actually give any better results for the finisghes I want.
Del
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kilted, what happens that makes you unsatisfied? Jawge
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I use either Beeswax/Tallow mixtures ....or rub in Linseed Oil's....I don't believe in them wet looking Finishes on a Bow...they may look good on a Coffee Table....Dresser ....Armoire...or Gun Cabinet...but not My Bows.....JMO
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I use either Beeswax/Tallow mixtures ....or rub in Linseed Oil's....I don't believe in them wet looking Finishes on a Bow...they may look good on a Coffee Table....Dresser ....Armoire...or Gun Cabinet...but not My Bows.....JMO
Yo... high five.
Del
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when it comes to the finish,i usually spend a lot of time (anal perfectionist)
some bows are easier than others to get the desired finish for me though
if i am trying to go all primitive,thats the easy one.i rub in beeswax,about 8-10 coats.the first 2-3 the wax is rubbed on a warm,heated bow.
the other coats are just hand buffed/rubed in cold.
if i am going fancy modern,i use tongue oil.either the high gloss or low gloss.
then the wood type helps decide how i proceed.
stuff like ipe gets degreased first,then about 15 coats usually.the first 5 are real light coats but get vigourusly hand rubbed in.
the rest of the coats are real light wipe on coats.then if i want to to the shine down i use xxxx steel wool rial light on it.
could take hours off each bow if i eliminated my finih process
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I am with DEL and EL. Most of my bows earn beauty mark in the field any way. Kenneth
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I put a finish on my bows to slow the hygroscopic rate(moisture exchange from atmosphere to wood and back) . All of my bows are built to hunt with so I don't want a deep shine or "perfect" finish look. I put down 4-6 coats of Tru-Oil with a rubdown with 0000steel wool between coats and when the last coat is applied and dried I add a quick spray of satin poly to cut the shine. The remaining tool marks are part of my signature.
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I do just like Pat, the finish on a selfbow is not just for looks, JMO. ;)
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Hi Kiltedcelt,( are you a Scotsman?) these words on finnishing sound like I wrote them myself, I've got so frustated with finnishing, especially ipe, If you seriously degrease ipe with acetone then apply Danish Oil , 5 or 6 coats this seems to work reasonably well. I dont know if danish oil is around in the states?, but its a mixture of oils mostly linseed, with some varnish like resins added and a solvent( I think)
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Nothing wrong with a pretty finish on a bow. If it is a target bow I often use gloss, if it is a hunting bow I use satin. Like Pat, I believe the finish is fairly important to protect the bow. I use Minwax quick dry spray Poly Urethane or Spar Urethane. I have used Poly and Spar on Ipe and never had a problem yet. You could be applying it too thick or in too cold of temps.
dragonman, danish is fairly easy to find in the US.
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Justin, your ipe or your urethane varnish must be very different from mine, because I have tried everything and without extreme degreasing it justn't dry, not even after 4 or 5 days. What do you think of the danish oil, would you reccomend it???
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I don't use it. ;D Nothing against it, I just like the Minwax so I don't change.
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Hi Kiltedcelt,( are you a Scotsman?) these words on finnishing sound like I wrote them myself, I've got so frustated with finnishing, especially ipe, If you seriously degrease ipe with acetone then apply Danish Oil , 5 or 6 coats this seems to work reasonably well. I dont know if danish oil is around in the states?, but its a mixture of oils mostly linseed, with some varnish like resins added and a solvent( I think)
I'm not right-off-the-boat Scotsman, but the bulk of my ethic make up is Scots/Irish, and I frequently wear a kilt. As for Danish Oil, there is brand here (in the states) called Watco - they make a good Danish Oil that can be bought in clear (natural) or a variety of stains from Walnut to Mahogany. My next finish it likely going to be some sort of wipe-on oil finish like Watco. They're just so much easier than any kind of brush-on or spray-on finish.
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I like to get the finish as close to perfect as I can. After spending so many hours making the bow itself, it just doesn't make sense to shortcut the finish by a few steps. I like tru oil. Generally I keep applying coats and steel wooling between them untill the grain is completely full and I have sufficient finish built up. ( on a porous wood, i usually have at least 12 coats, sometimes more) Then I wet sand the entire bow with 600 then 1000 grit. The finish will be perfectly smooth but very dull after wet sanding. Then I use automotive polishing compound to bring a nice satin luster back to the finish, then I wax it. The result is a glass smooth finish without a blinding shine. I also prefer a non shiny bow.
Scott, the point you bring up is the reason I seem to sweat getting a good finish, especially if I've created a bow that is more "pretty" versus strictly "utilitarian". I don't mind putting in some extra time putting on a good finish, but the trouble I've had with the lacquer finish on these two bows is just ridiculous. I'll NEVER do lacquer EVER again!
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When I go for a glossy finish, which is usually for furniture and not bows, I use water-based polyurethane (Minwax Polyacrylic) for its durability, not its sandability; it's actually much harder, and more difficult to sand than the oil based stuff. That's the stuff I wet sand with oil and fine grit. I prefer oil-based finishes for most everything though, and it is possible to bring them to high gloss as well, it just takes lots of elbow grease. Poly is just a quick easy mimic of the finish you get from oil.
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For an functional object like a bow I usually stop sanding at 220. I then raise the grain with a paper towel and warm water. Knock down any fuzz with worn 220 and then apply a coat of penetrating oil like Watco. Watco has a long open time so you can wet sand if you like using Watco for lube the sanding dust mixed with the oil will fill the grain. It takes 3 or 4 days for the Watco to fully dry and when it is dry I use a varnish based top coat like spar varnish over the Watco. Haven't used Tru Oil but from the endorsements here I'm sure it will work fine. Using the penetrating oil first will ensure that the finish is IN the wood not just laying on the surface.
I have shot colored lacquer on Ipe/Boo but surface finishes take maintenance. Oh, Yeh, good hard carnaba wax on top of everything.
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Excellent topic, hope y'all don't mind the bump.
Some random thoughts on finishing:
A bow is a very difficult object to finish. Just finding a way to hold it while you apply a finish can be a challenge. There's nothing like a flat surface on it, everything is curved and there's no place where you do one side, let it dry, then flip it and do the other side; each coat has to be continuous. So any kind of thick finish that would work well on a tabletop will tend to sag, drip, and run on a bow. Also the finish will have to flex with the bow. So the best finishes are ones that can be applied in very thin coats and wiped on with a rag.
The easiest finish I have worked with was Watco Danish oil. This is basically boiled linseed oil with just a touch of varnish. It behaves pretty much like b.l.o., just rub on and rub off. It doesn't get sticky as fast as tru-oil (which to me just seems like wiping varnish...if I try to rub it in like oil it gets sticky and pulls loads of lint off the rag, and leaves marks. I had to wipe it on in smooth continuous strokes just like varnish). But it only has a touch of gloss, too, so that could be a downside. I got the best results rubbing it in with sandpaper up to 1500 grit. It's not exactly glossy, but has a very nice deep luster, and if you look at it from a low angle (like looking down the limbs from the tip) you get a mirror-like reflection. To me that is the ideal surface finish, its classy and understated, but catches the eye and feels like silk to the hand.
I usually don't like to stain wood. A lot of closed-pore woods like birch or maple are difficult to stain evenly, and a bow with all of its contours has lots of end grain showing in different places, and those areas like to stain darker. Stains often "muddy" the wood, especially fine grained ones. Plus having a stain makes my favorite technique of wetsanding with danish oil or b.l.o more difficult since its easy to sand through the stain (although I can get around that by mixing some oil based stain into my danish oil and doing it all in one step). Strongly open-grained woods like ash, oak, and hickory are the best candidates for staining, since it actually helps make the grain more dramatic.
I often use BLO to "stain" woods. On darker woods like ERC, Walnut, and even cherry, BLO brings out the colors very nicely, better than any stain could do. It gives a nice amber glow to white woods, too. It helps pop grain on figured pieces or burls. Most other finishes can be applied over BLO, just let it dry for a week.
If I want a super glossy finish, my favorite is shellac. It's easily marred by water and oils, and especially alcohol, but for a target bow that will be pampered it works well. It doesn't have the plasticky feel of varnish, and is harder than varnish so it will take a much better gloss. It dries to the touch in like two seconds, can be recoated within a couple hours, so you can get on all of your coats in a day or two. Since it dries so fast lint is not an issue, and I've never had a problem with runs and drips (I use a relatively thin 1 lb cut normally). The individual coats merge together into one, unlike varnish where you have a bunch of thin coats sitting on top of each other. That makes it more forgiving when you sand off imperfections, since you won't leave a white witness line where you have gone through a layer like with varnish. Best of all, since its solvent is alcohol, it doesn't have an overpowering smell, and what smell there is disappears quickly. You can finish in your bedroom, or in an apartment. That would be unpleasant with varnish.
Dewaxed shellac also makes an excellent sanding sealer for other finishes. I've read that it is one of the best barriers to water vapor. It certainly makes the wood fibers stiffer and lets you sand the wood smoother. I just put on one coat of 1/2 lb cut in between each grit after 150. It helps to even stain penetration, too.
Other tips:
-use good lighting when doing finishing work. You need light from multiple angles to see all of the little imperfections. Harsh fluorescent lights are very unflattering; if you can make it look good under one of those it will look fantastic under regular light.
-Don't underestimate the satin finish. A perfect glossy finish is so much work, from making the surfaces even and not wavy to getting on a perfect coat...in fact most glossy finishes I've seen were not perfect if you look close enough. A quick rubdown with 0000 steel wool lubed with wax will turn a so-so gloss finish into a perfect satin finish, since the lack of reflection hides most tiny imperfections. The beauty of a satin finish is more in the feel of it than in looking like its been dipped in glass. It's more fitting of a deadly weapon, too...makes it seem more serious somehow.
Well hopefully that helps someone. -Rob
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Sounds like a lot of good techniques Robert. If you look down a little ways you'll see I finally finished these two bows. They're under the BBI completed thread. I finished them using a natural oil composite called Bioshield Hard Oil #9. Bioshield has linseed oil, tung oil, and castor oil along with some driers and such. It is extremely low VOC and can be easily wiped on with a rag in multiple thin coats. I put on five coats and got a fairly nice glossy sheen but not overpoweringly glassy looking. I think it could be buffed down a bit with 0000 steel wool as you mentioned and that would probably yield a nice satin finish. I'm planning on using it on a number of woodworking projects from carving to drums to boxes as well as my next few bows. Because of its ease of application, low odor, and the nice result it yields I think it's my new go-to finish.
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here's one that simple, cheap and durable, SUPER GLUE. a few coats of super glue will encase you bow in acrylic plastic. its tough enough and will polish out to a good luster. Its a technique i have used on oily woods for a while but recently did a whole bow with it. It was HBO with cocobolo accents all through. Then i sprayed two coats of Spar Urethane and once that is cured i will apply paste wax with steel wool and buff it out. really easy and not expensive to do. Remember, Ipe is super oily no matter how much you clean it with acetone most finishes will take forever to dry. Super glue will dry in about 10 mins.
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My philosophy is that perfect is the enemy of real good.Ronnie
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kiltedcelt- that finish sounds nice. I hear that real tung oil is a good moisture barrier, so if the bioshield has enough of that then that sounds like it would be ideal for a bow.
sulphur- I've been intrigued by superglue as a finish, but how do you apply it? Do you buy it in a can or something, and wipe it on? Seems like it would be tricky to get it on smooth before it dries, you wouldn't have much time for correcting mistakes. Epoxy might be a a similar candidate for a super tough finish.
-Ronnie- that's about it, lol.