Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Blacktail on December 17, 2009, 12:37:20 am
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IS it a certain amount of bows..or a certain amount of broken sticks...this is some thing i have allways wondered...if you make one bow do you get the title...at times i call myself a bowyer..but,i dont really feel like one.. when did you feel that you could call youself a bowyer...so,what do you think..john
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You're a bowyer when you build a bow.
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You're a bowyer when you build a bow.
I agree. If you make bows then your a bowyer. Maybe just an amateur backyard bowyer but a bowyer none the less.I think someone that sells bows for a living would be considered a professional bowyer but most of us are just recreational bowyers. As far as I know there is no degree you can get that determines when to be called one. If you make bows then your a bow maker/ 'bowyer" in my opinion.
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I think when you can make a bow of a predetermined length/weight/draw length,etc...more times than you can't...Then, I'd say you're a "bowyer".
IMO, other than that, you're just making a bow.
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I think when you can make a bow of a predetermined length/weight/draw length,etc...more times than you can't...Then, I'd say you're a "bowyer".
IMO, other than that, you're just making a bow.
i agree,but disagree at the same time.
a journeyman bowyer can make a bow of a predetermined length/weight etc.
an apprenctice bowyer can make bows,may not the intended draw weight but a bow none the less
just like in most labor type occupations there are those with the abilities to do the job and get it done,and there are those that can do the job and get it done right.
me i am an apprentice bowyer with a knapping addiction ;D
oh ya i made a slow pretty one last night too(point not bow)
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Well do you think the Indians that made bows new about poundage? I think they just made a bow to fit the person. I dont consider myself a bowyer. Only because I havent made that many bows. All the bows I have made I couldnt even tell you the poundage. I just make them to my likeings. I dont think that really matters. I think if someone can take a piece of a tree mark it out, shape it and make a bow to a persons likeing and do it like it is a second nature, then that is a true bowyer.
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a bow does not have to be the correct length weight etc, to be a bow. if I'm stuck in the wilderness and I make an assymetric sapling bow with aweful string follow but it is good enough to kill a rabbit, then it is a bow, and i would be a bowyer. The distinction should be; professional, apprentice, ametuer, etc.
If i use the bow to smack the rabbit over the head, then it is just a rabbit stick, and i am a caveman ;D
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Send me one of your best bows and I will tell you if you are >:D >:D >:D
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I'm just an Old Fashioned............Wood Butcher........... >:D
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I'm sure plenty of people will have an opinion on this one. I remember Rod once commenting that making a few bows does not constitute one being a bowyer. For me its just a label, and I hate labels. That said, Marc St Louis, Rich Saffold and Chris Boyton are all the kind of craftsmen I would want to emulate. There are loads of other bowyers out there, I know quite a few here in Germany. Perhaps it's when people want to buy your bows.
Nat
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assuming you've made a functional bow, you can start calling yourself a bowyer. just ask yourself how much you want to mean it.
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I look at it the same way I look at a plumber for instance, I fix all my own plumbing but am not a plumber. I would not consider someone a bowyer unless they had acheived journeyman status in at least the style of bow they specialized in. I have made a lot of bows but don't consider myself a bowyer mainly because I haven't taken the time to master the finishing aspects of bowyering. As a journeyman truck mechanic I know we have many different areas that we have to qualify in to be considered journeyman, I think of it the same way with bows and arrows. Steve
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And I quote, "Do or do not...there is no try."
As far as the rest goes - it follows my signature tag.
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Badger if you ant one nobody is, :) :)I don't conceder myself a bowyer,I am just a guy who loves to build bows. :) I guess if it matters to you and you build bows call yourself a bowyer. ;) :)
Pappy
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As someone else said, I don't like labels.
My pet hate label is 'expert', if I had to define 'expert' it would be 'the man who can put right his own mistakes'.
Maybe the same applies to 'bowyer' ?
We all make mistakes, the trick is to keep 'em small and be able to get around 'em.
Buying flowers sometimes helps :o ;)
Del
(PS, I think you'll know when you are a bowyer, cos that's what people will be calling you)
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I think you can call yourself a Bowyer anytime you want. Everybody else will tell you if you are a "Good Bowyer" or not.
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if i remember right, this was discussed about two or three years ago on here. i think the consensus then was to be called a bowyer, you have to have made 100 solid, shootable bows. i think if you have the skill to choose a draw weight for a stave and hit that weight with the bow, just about everytime, you're a bowyer. i remember reading to hearing a quote from an old indian to the effect that, "anyone can make a bow, but to make a good arrow is a heap-a-lot of work."
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I think it's like being a saint. You can't campaign for the job. It's what do your peers say. Badger, as far as I am concerned you are a bowyer. :) Jawge
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well, Merriam-Webster defines all of us as bowyers...
Main Entry: bow·yer
Pronunciation: \ˈbō-yər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English bowyere
Date: 14th century
: a maker of shooting bows
I think terminology is over-rated. call yourself what you want, I just enjoy making and shooting wooden bows... there's nothing else like it :) -josh
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Q: What came first the chicken or the egg?
A: Who cares, they both taste good :)
Me I'm a yooper turd herder that makes a few bows ;D
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this is what i wanted to hear...and that is every ones opinion...i was just curios about what you thought about the title bowyer...for me i just like the craft of taking a stick and making it into a functional weapon...and i have learned that i like to challenge my brain in this way...plus i love the earth smell of vm...john
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Who is Marion Webster and what does she know about it? ::)
You can call yourself anything you want, it won't make it so.
Rod.
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...how true ;) -josh
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i just call myself a beginning bowyer venturing into the uncharted world of bent sticks
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Some famous guy?? Once said, if he has made 3 bows listen to what he says cause he knows something you don't.
Just for the heck of it lets make a list of all the areas a bowyer might be proficient in, things related to bowyering.
Collecting Wood
1. Recognising most at least 90% of potential bow tree species.
2. Being able to judge the bow making worthiness of a tree before cutting
3. Ability to harvest and split such tree minimizing waist
4. Ability to dry and store harvested wood without ruining it.
Preparing Staves.
1. Ability to use micro splitting tecniques following radial grain as well as growth rings
2. Successfully chasing a clean ring on the back
3. Bow layout on a particular stave
4. Judging possible designs
5. Use of cawls for Straightening and maintaing staves through the drying process
Preparing Staves ( power tools )
1. Proficient with bandsaws, sanders, etc.
Bow making.
1. Proficient at how many designs?
2. Ability to hit weight
3. Level of performance and shootability with various designs
4. Skill in bending wood as in recurves or r/d designs ( use of heat, steam, jigs, etc.)
5. Speed and accuracy while working, use of bow making tools, benches, tiller trees etc.
6. Knowledge of finishes and handle wrapping, cutting nocks etc.
7. Setting up a bow to be shot
8. Understanding wood behavior durring the tillering process
9. Knowledge of wood and design and how they relate to each other.
10. Tillering and how it relates to various designs.
Please feel free to add more! I usually buy my staves and have the greatest respect for those that are able to supply me.
I believe if a proffessinal bowyer made only one kind of bow from one kind of wood and did a good job of it he could rightfully call himself a bowyer. Everyhting else is icing on the cake kind of like degees in martial arts.
Steve
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good list Steve, I can't think of anything to add besides running in to a potentially fatal problem for a potential bow and having the knowledge and foresight to fix it before the bow blows up and salvaging it and making a working bow out of it. I think in order to be a good bowyer you have to be able to differentiate between something worth saving and knowing when to call it quits and start another. just my 2 cents. -josh
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Some famous guy?? Once said, if he has made 3 bows listen to what he says cause he knows something you don't.
Just for the heck of it lets make a list of all the areas a bowyer might be proficient in, things related to bowyering.
Collecting Wood
1. Recognising most at least 90% of potential bow tree species.
2. Being able to judge the bow making worthiness of a tree before cutting
3. Ability to harvest and split such tree minimizing waist
4. Ability to dry and store harvested wood without ruining it.
Preparing Staves.
1. Ability to use micro splitting tecniques following radial grain as well as growth rings
2. Successfully chasing a clean ring on the back
3. Bow layout on a particular stave
4. Judging possible designs
5. Use of cawls for Straightening and maintaing staves through the drying process
Preparing Staves ( power tools )
1. Proficient with bandsaws, sanders, etc.
Bow making.
1. Proficient at how many designs?
2. Ability to hit weight
3. Level of performance and shootability with various designs
4. Skill in bending wood as in recurves or r/d designs ( use of heat, steam, jigs, etc.)
5. Speed and accuracy while working, use of bow making tools, benches, tiller trees etc.
6. Knowledge of finishes and handle wrapping, cutting nocks etc.
7. Setting up a bow to be shot
8. Understanding wood behavior durring the tillering process
9. Knowledge of wood and design and how they relate to each other.
10. Tillering and how it relates to various designs.
Please feel free to add more! I usually buy my staves and have the greatest respect for those that are able to supply me.
I believe if a proffessinal bowyer made only one kind of bow from one kind of wood and did a good job of it he could rightfully call himself a bowyer. Everyhting else is icing on the cake kind of like degees in martial arts.
Steve
Let us not forget:
Attitudes and Obsessions:
1. Judges prospective new residences by the shooting opportunities the yard might offer
2. Considers buying bamboo laminate flooring even though he/she does not need a new floor.
3. Makes or feels compelled to make bows form materials everybody swears will never work.
4. Sees the world in a trunk of tree, and heaven in a stand of cane.
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Hey Badger, nice list, but I saw the word 'speed' in there...
Can you explain that word to me please O:) ?
Del
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A bowyer makes instruments, and and instrument is not only functional but also a work of art. The people I consider bowyers may set out to makes something functional, but if it is truly functional instrument of wood, and of the energy they put into it, than the bow will invariably also be beautiful in the end.
So, I think the: efficiency of the bow, the ethics and care with which it was harvested and formed, and the beauty of the instrument all speak to the quality of the bowyer. And I'd like to think, that you can tell when you hold a bow, or sometimes just see it, that these qualities are present. Bows are alive, and so Bowyers are in a way more like parents than like manufacturers. What makes a good parent?
Gabe
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Del, I know individuals who can lay tile at home for instance and do a great job, but it might take them 5 times as long as a pro tile setter, the results might be the same. Same way with a bowyer, an experienced bowyer may take 4 hours to do what takes a less experienced bowyer 20 hours. results may be the same. Steve
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If you make bows then you are a bowyer. How proficient a bowyer you are is another matter.
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If you make bows then you are a bowyer. How proficient a bowyer you are is another matter.
I think there is no other interpretation possible.
If you play a note on a piano, than you are A piano player (at that moment), still long way to go to the Rachmaninoff etudes or the Köln Concert...
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"Who is Marion Webster and what does she know about it?"
Wasn't she Robin Hood's girl friend? :) Jawge
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That was her maiden name Jawge ;D
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I can play "Three blind mice" on a piano...but I'm not a pianist
I can sing "Fishing in the dark"...but I'm not a singer
I can service my truck... but I'm no mechanic
I can even build a dog house, a brick one if I wanted...but I'm not a.........well, you know what I mean ;D
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I can play "Three blind mice" on a piano...but I'm not a pianist
I can sing "Fishing in the dark"...but I'm not a singer
I can service my truck... but I'm no mechanic
I can even build a dog house, a brick one if I wanted...but I'm not a.........well, you know what I mean ;D
So your saying it must be your profession? I have a drum set that I'm trying to learn and I admit I am not a very good drummer but I am still a drummer.
I really dont care what the label is. Even a guy that makes crapy kids f/g bows for a living would be called a bowyer when he wouldnt have half the skills of someone considered an amateur bowyer with all wood. I consider myself a hobby or amateur bowyer. Its what you do that gives you the title not what you've done once. If you make bows and thats what your into then you are a bowyer just like if you love biking and do it all the time your a cyclist and so on. It's not like being a doctor where you need to meet qualifications or pass a test. There is no such thing for being a bowyer. If you make bows and thats your thing then you are a bowyer good one or not. Fact is a relatively new guy in this hobby can make a bow that rivals the old timers with all the improved info available to them. Just had to make a stink ;D I really dont care one way or the other. If you aren't a bowyer Badger then they are a mythical creature ;D
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You can call yourself anything you want, it won't make it so.
Rod.
You are so right....I call myself Her Kind...Conscientious...Loving and Caring Life Partner....
My Wife has different Names for it though........ :P
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i dont think iam i just make bows, i was told when you sell your first one. to each thier own.
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Make all the stinks you want Jesse. I can't smell 'em from here anyway ;D
"To each his own" ;)
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My Son has been drumming for 20 years.... He can play Drums as good as Peter Criss........Does that mean he's a drummer??....His Trade is Chemical Engineering....Thats His Job....
I build Bows and Knives...thats my Hobby....but I am a Crane Operator....not a Bowyer.......
I Scrape and Bend Wood to the Point where it Bends...and hope it doesn't break....I am a Wood Butcher....not a Bowyer
JMO
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My old Grandad used ta say,"A good hand is the one who can recognize a wreck before it happens and avoid it".
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A bowyer= the guy that gets paid the big bucks. ;D
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bow·yer (bō'yər)
n.
One who makes or sells bows for archery.
If you are good at making bows, then you are a good bowyer.
If you make bows for a living, then you are a professional bowyer.
If you are new to the craft, then you are a novice bowyer.
If you have staves parked in your garage for years but have yet to finish a bow, then you are a wanabe bowyer.
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Del, I know individuals who can lay tile at home for instance and do a great job, but it might take them 5 times as long as a pro tile setter, the results might be the same. Same way with a bowyer, an experienced bowyer may take 4 hours to do what takes a less experienced bowyer 20 hours. results may be the same. Steve
Ha, but conversely, when I had all my windows done, a proffesional fitter opened up a window to convert it to a patio door, but didn't cement or seal underneath it and it's just taken a month to get the mice out of the room!
I'd rather have a bow made slowly with love by one of you guys (most of whom I'd call bowyers) than one cranked out en masse in a workshop.
Anyhow it was meant to be a joke, based on the care we all lavish on our creations.
That's still a good list.
Del
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If you have staves parked in your garage for years but have yet to finish a bow, then you are a wanabe bowyer.
So, everytime AFTER finishing one we become a wanabe bowyer again, right??? ;D ;D ;D
It's interesting to see how different all the perspectives seem to be, personally I think it's true as Gordon says!
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All of you fellas build bows because you love it. Being called by a certain name (bowyer) or not probably wont keep you from making the next one, or the next, etc. So I guess it shouldn't matter what you are called ....long as it aint late for dinner!
Don't get wrapped up in the name thing....you are all good people who have a common love (hate?) relationship with this whole bow thing I'm proud to be amoungst all of you whatever you call yourselves.
half eye
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Lots of people call themselves hunters or fishing, but they haven't or rarely kill or catch....it's about the pursuit. Same with being a bowyer- it's about the pursuit of building a bow.
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I can accept Gordons definition. I like to reserve the word "Bowyer" out of respect for some of our long standing artists and craftsman still alive today who honed their craft over a period of years. Some of these guys have lots of little tid bits of knowledge even they don't realize they have. In some ways we do an apprenticeship here on this sight and sights like this. Information and tricks get passed down pretty quickly. I would call myself an "experimental bowyer" as I have not honed down all the fine finishing tecniques that make many of these bows what they are. I save the word "bowyer" by itself for those guys who do it all.
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Well, maybe this sounds crazy but to me the transition of making bows to becoming a bowyer would be when:
It' finally in your blood so deep you can't possibly shake off the urge to create a better one.
It's when the bow that you created is something that everyone wants, and yet you are still looking for some way to improve it.
It's an attitude... a confidence... a time when the light comes on upstairs and you can say... I feel good about teaching someone else what I have learned.
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Well, maybe this sounds crazy but to me the transition of making bows to becoming a bowyer would be when it is finally in your blood so deep you can't possibly shake off the urge to create a better one.
That happens during the first one though doesn't it ;D ;D ;D
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But is it something that everyone wants? ;D lol
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I see your point El D. Gordons description best fits the way I think of it. But yeah to each his own. I think of most of you guys on here as bowyers but thats just how I got it in my head right or wrong. To be respected in the archery world you gotta make bows people respect your title isn't whats important.
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... Gordons description best fits the way I think of it. But yeah to each his own....
Yes, sure!
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What do I know, I just build shooting sticks.
I've always contemplated the term Bowyer.
Many layout their designs on paper then transfer them onto wood. They make specific cuts, they look at thickness and limb length and truly make a beautiful bow. Allan made me a static recurve that is just awsome. It has matching limb widths and thickness. The handle is cut out and a shelf is cut in and it is sanded and is a basic work or art.
Then you have guys like me. I get a stave, take it down with no specific idea in mind. I don't steam out limb twists but use them when they don't break....LOL. I truly have no idea what the bow will look like when I start. My horsebows start as unbacked longbows that I complete without a finish, shoot in, then cut down, recurve, and sinew then retiller as needed.
We all fall into our own diff styles that we like to build. I truly make crappy board bows, but give me a stave and it's a diff. story. Not that I can not make a board bow, been there done that, but they do not perform and I don't enjoy them like a stave bow.
As far as when you are considered a bowyer, well I guess that depends on the guy making the bow. When the person building can sit down and talk bow building, not be an expert but knows enough that he, the builder is content with his ideas. Now, there will be conflicting ideas as many who have been doing this for awhile know. Many big time bowyers debate limb styles, thickness, recurve %, etc...
I've broken two of the last 4 bowys I've made. I guess the old saying is true, if you are not breaking them, you're not making them. I'm working
on a glued up lemonwood, purpleheart, and bamboo bow now that I traded for. It is a blank, so I feel that I am cheating, but it is such a beautiful blank that I had to trade for it. It will be turned into a 72" Cherokee D bow, with a little ELB flare. Then it will be back to a piece of hickory that is calling.........Frankkkkkk........make me something.
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I am nothing more than a purveyor of fine sawdust that happens to make bows, guitars, furniture, cabinets, etc.....
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FVR, I seldom ever use a tape measure when building a bow. I do find the center and mark the ends but rarely lay a stave out.. I just carve them into shape. I love the tecnical discussion but my own personnal bows are rough to look at. The longer I build them the rougher they seem to get. By the same token I have a great appreciation for some of the nice finishing tecniques I see here. I reserve that for my favorite bows. Steve
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You can call yourself a bowyer whenever you want. Getting other bowyers to call you one might be the true measure.
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But then you really have to care if others call you a bowyer.
I am content with builder of shooting sticks.
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I wouldn't want to be a boyer I always thought a boyer was someone who made his living making bows for the kings army and that was all he did. Me jack of all master of none If I had a nice shop would I make better bows yes. I work out in my backyard so I must be a fair weather summer time backyard Boyer my bows shoot good I have a young guy shoot them for me at a indoor range and tells me If they shoot good and what there doing thats not right when he hits a playing card at 20 yards five out of five I quit adjusting things.
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Back in the late 90's I use to do many rendezvous, art shows, and pow wows. Between the printing co., the frame co., and building bows/arrows and prim. googas for the shows........it burned me out. I sold bows that now I wished I'd kept. They ranged in prices from 200 t0 1,000 dollars and it was an okay living. I can tell you, I was no Jimmy Taylor, he has it down pat.
Today, I will not sell a bow. NO Way. I will make a bow and would rather give it away than sell it.
I have the up-most respect for those bowyers that make and sell selfbows or any hand made bow to the public. It's like you put your heart and soul into it, for what? 500 bucks?
I sold that one bow for a gran, and I wished I had not. I sold my soul with that sale and have not made another one since. At the time the money was nice, but it's only money.
I learned my lesson, I'm not a seller of bows that I make.
Live and learn.
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You can call yourself a bowyer regardless of your skill or experience, if you are engaged in making a bow.
The trick is when others consider you to be a bowyer. I'd argue there's guys that have made hundreds, perhaps thousands of bows, and ain't got a clue what it takes to make a selfbow (think about fellows assembling compounds in a factory). Even lam bow guys have a much different skill set than we do. I like the idea that bowyer is a term best used to describe another. And like Justice Potter said wrt obsenity "I know it when I see it." I also appretiate the soup to nuts consideration, including tree selection all the way up to finish, string and leather work.
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A friend called me last week. We had not talked for some time now. So he asked me what had I been doing.
I replied, "trying to be the best bowyer I can be, considering my lack of experience."
To which he responded, "Jeez Dave, I thought you were straight."
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A friend called me last week. We had not talked for some time now. So he asked me what had I been doing.
I replied, "trying to be the best bowyer I can be, considering my lack of experience."
To which he responded, "Jeez Dave, I thought you were straight."
LOL ;D
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I call myself a factory worker. I started calling myself a factory worker when I started making a living at it. There are a few factories still left around so I work in them, been doing so now for 17 years. If you ask anybody that knows me, they too will tell you I'm a factory worker. If I needed a car worked on I'd call a mechanic or even a plummer for a leaky pipe. Now some of this I do myself, but really I'm still a factory worker. Now If somebody needs a good bow made, like everything else, they always know who to call. Those people getting the calls are the bowyers. And I bet if you were to ask them, they would tell you the same. As for me, I'm just having fun building bows.
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When I go hunting, I'm a hunter. When I go skiing, I'm a skier. When I'm gardening, I'm a gardner. And when I'm building bows, I'm a bowyer.
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Gordon, I agree wicha. You're a bowyer. LOL. Some people get touchy about who gets the title as if we have bowyer's guild to which we apply for membership like they did in England when they were busy fighting the French for 100 years. I kind of agree with Rhett Butler in Gone with the Wind who said, "My dear, I don't give a damn." I'm just a guy who likes to garden, snowshoe, read, hunt, fish and make bows and arrows. Oh ya and I like to watch movies. :) Jawge
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MAN,what the heck did i start here...i hope there is no fire or flames going on..lol...john
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Gordon, I agree wicha. You're a bowyer. LOL. Some people get touchy about who gets the title as if we have bowyer's guild to which we apply for membership like they did in England when they were busy fighting the French for 100 years. I kind of agree with Rhett Butler in Gone with the Wind who said, "My dear, I don't give a damn." I'm just a guy who likes to garden, snowshoe, read, hunt, fish and make bows and arrows. Oh ya and I like to watch movies. :) Jawge
Bowyers guild ::)... I looked up their website, I was completely unimpressed, you can sended 'em a few pictures and some cash, they send you a certificate. It looks like a sorry con trick to me. I don't need a piece of paper to prove anything. In fact one of my favourite sayings is.
"What's written on a piece of paper doesn't necessarilly effect reality". I see plenty of guys with paper degrees who couldn't tell a cows backside from a letter box.
It just seems like a money spinner...
On this website people freely share their knowledge and experience, no one screws money out of us or expects a subscripion or trys to sell us. 'Certified member of the august Primitive Archer society' badges...
Send me the money, I'll print you a certificate for any thing :o.
Del (sorry ... rant over)
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I like Gordon's definition.
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A rose by any other name would smell as sweet ;D