Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kirkll on December 08, 2009, 05:51:44 pm
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Here we go gentlemen, i have begun chasing my first rings on my first self bow project. i need to find a decent draw knife, but for now these old planer blades i've got work fairly good with a pair of leather gloves. as hard as this osage is, it carves pretty nicely with a good sharp blade.
David told me he left a couple rings to chase here to give me some experience, well right out of the chute i got down 3 rings at the tip, so what is a guy to do... 3 rings it is....
then i thought, maybe i better stop here before going any further, and ask you guys how you choose the ring you want to stop at?
i got the feel of my home made draw knife down pretty good so i can get the top two rings off pretty efficeintly, and put the sneak on the last ring i'm leaving for the back, by going slowly and scraping into the ring i'm removing.
here's a few photo's..... all sugestions are welcome guys.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings003.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings004.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings005.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings007.jpg)
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I prefer to work one ring at a time and usually start at the end closest to me, start about 8" out from the end and work back then go another 8" and work back, etc. This way your chance of lifting a ling splinter is minimized. Looks like you are doing fine with your makeshift draw knife. If you can add handles perpendicular to the blade it may give you better control.
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Looks like to me you are on the right path. Your lighting is perfect in your pics for chasing rings. I turn my drawknife around and use the backside of the blade when I am chasing rings. Just take your top ring off then go to the next one and do the same thing until you get to the ring you want. Looks good. If you want a drawknife look on the big auction site and there will be several on there. If you have any antique stores around you check them out also.
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I find the ring I want. Go up the right away from me for about a foot,down the middle toward me and up the left. YOu know you have about 5 violations in that first pic? Just checking. :) Jawge
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Kirkill:
Can you post a " good close up " photo of the " ends " of you stave?
Just like it is in the vice.
Pat, Dean and George give good advice.
Each white line across the stave is a ring. Work each one down to the far end separately.
Then go back to the next white line and work the next ring down to the far end.
When you decide which ring you are going to use don't cut into the hard wood ring below the soft, crunchy, early wood above it.
The white lines are the early wood.
David
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first of all... there is no dry crunchy wood on this stave at all that i've noticed. i'm getting nice long curls of wood even when scraping. i'm uncertain how many rings were pulled off this stave before i got it from dave. i have noticed its a wee bit crumbly right before i break into the winter growth ring. Is that what you are calling the "late growth"???
i appologize for my lack of bowyers terminology here. :-[
the reason i've got 3 rings going at a time here is that i was looking for a color change that was a bit more pronounced. by the time i got the lighting just right and figured out how to read the ring changes.... i was down 3 rings..... actually i got into the tip of the fourth ring at the very end of the stave. so i figured i'd work each ring as i go down the stave.
is there a particular reason why you guys prefer going one ring at a time?
Dean, could you point out these said "violations"? if each ring line, and that knot swirl at the edge constitutes these, i understand where you are coming from. if not you lost me.
now back to my original question.... How do i know which ring i want? Do i pick out a thicker winter growth or late ring, or will any nice smooth one work.... i'm flying blind here guys. :-[
thanks for your patience guys.... if it makes you feel any better, i typically catch on pretty quick if it has something to do with wood. :D
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I go right to it. Up the right, down the middle and up the left. Never loose the ring I want. I use my push knife and shavehooks. The push knife (bottom) pushes the upper rings away. The curved shavehooks are good for scraping. A curved scraper will also work. Jawge
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/Jawge/Tools/shavehooks.jpg)
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kirk when you know you are on the ring you want to use i carve with my draw knife unitl i hit the pithy, spongy looking stuff. From there i clean it up with a scraper. I generally use the first decently thick ring as my back. I have found that once you get to a certain thickness (say 1/8") thats usually good enough. Most rings in smaller trees are thicker, and more thinner in old trees. Just don't break through your intended ring and your going to be fine. Looks like your doing a good job to me! also keep your ears open for that zipper sound as your removing wood, that will be that pithy, spongy layer that is on top of your bows back.
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Thanks supher. all these winter growth rings are running about 3/32" thick and are pretty evenly spaced. whithout having a clue what i'm doing here, id say the stave has the makings for a good stout bow.
oh she's got some wiggles to her i'll have to work around, and definetely some bending is in my future.
hey George, i'm really glad to hear you are so profiecent at this stuff and all..... but you didn't answer my question? would you be kind enough to point out what these violations you were talking about in your earlier post? you got me going here.
Thanks, Kirk
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Looks like you are getting it.I usually go one ring at a time also but it really don't matter.I always start in the middle of the stave,find the ring I want ,get it clean all the way across then bring it toward me to the end,then turn the stave around and bring it to me again with the other half of the stave. May be Bass ackwards :) but that is how I learned,I also use a draw knife bevel up. ;) :)
Pappy
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(http://home.comcast.net/~dcm4/pwpimages/os1a.jpg)
That stave has generous thickness Kirk, so I think if you chase a fat ring (the 3rd you've started) it's no problem. Even the 4th you've started should come off but you arent' completely committed just yet, no farther than you've gone. I need to see the ends of it again to be sure. I'm working from memory. Seems like there were lots of tiny rings, most of which I chased off, then the good fat ones started. I probably chased off 8 or 10 heartwood rings, all tiny, in addition to the sapwood. I know I chased off 3 or 4 one at a time, and tend to take a few when they are little like with the sapwood passes, just gouging out as quickly as my arms will carry me.
I'd imagine the ends look like the leftmost one here. Any of them fat ones is good. All you are concerned with is have one fat continuous ring end to end, with no marks, gouges, nicks or splits in it.
The topmost arrow on the left pic shows you want to get the light colored stuff off the top, but no more. The second arrow underneath is what folks call the crunchy stuff, but that stave is so tight ringed it's crunchy stuff ain't thick enough to actually be crunchy, or even pronounced enough to "feel." But as your pics show, easily found.
The rightmost pic shows sapwood, white wood, which you may not have ever seen on osage in person. But that specimen is far from typical, being an extremely fast growing tree. Most have several smaller whitewood rings, more like the size of the heartwood you see. In this one tree the heart started closer to the bark. You can also see in it (maybe, in person for sure) what are called "lunar" rings, intermixed within the summer growth. Seems like I read its like a mini-seasons within the summer season, where moonlit vs. dark night cycles make their own tiny soft rings within the summer ring. But the tree has to lay down growth really fast to see it usually.
I always get confused about what to call the winter growth, the spongy soft stuff, and the hard, more wood-like summer growth.
Looks like you are off to a good start. I'd encourage you to take one ring at a time. Then if you get a surprise somewhere along the way you got options. Once you started a ring, there's no going back. Also, clean up the knot end, as tedious as it is.
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"hey George, i'm really glad to hear you are so profiecent at this stuff and all..... but you didn't answer my question? would you be kind enough to point out what these violations you were talking about in your earlier post? you got me going here."
Are you getting frustrated, kirk? I didn't say I was really proficient. Those are your words. My apologies for coming across as a know-it-all. Just trying to help. I didn't see your question in previous posts. ridgerunner did point them out to you which is why I didn't. :) Jawge
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"hey George, i'm really glad to hear you are so profiecent at this stuff and all..... but you didn't answer my question? would you be kind enough to point out what these violations you were talking about in your earlier post? you got me going here."
Are you getting frustrated, kirk? I didn't say I was really proficient. Those are your words. My apologies for coming across as a know-it-all. Just trying to help. I didn't see your question in previous posts. ridgerunner did point them out to you which is why I didn't. :) Jawge
much too early in the game for frustation here George. i'm just a rookie here with quite a few basic questions is all. i'd just hate to get too gung-ho on this thing and screw it up. i'll get the hang of it quickly with you guys helping me, i'm quite sure. thanks for your help. :)
David.... really good info there... i'll take more photos and post again later...... Kirk
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George:
I wondered if you would chime back in....
Kirk:
If you could remove the TOP ring all the way to the other end of the stave, and then post a new photo of the stave, WE would all feel much better.
We are all so used to talking this Bow lingo that we sometimes forget that we all had to learn sometime back in the past.
Try to use your blade like a draw knife. It should work and it will be much easer to do. Turn it "upside down" and then tilt the back of it up so the bevel is flat on the wood. Then " pull " it into the top most "showing" crumbly white line. The ring on top will peel off quite easy. It will surprise you.
You have cut through four rings. Unless you are planning on sawing the end off you will have to remove all four of these rings.
This is what " violations " in this case means. More that one ring showing on the back.
Thanks
David
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can you say can of worms? I just love chasing a ring with my dull drawknife (never gets sharpened) a dull drawknife isn't acting like a knife at all, you use it more like a wedge, once you get it started on some of the crumbly earlywood you can follow a ring quite easily without cutting through the tough earlywood underneath. the wood doesn't come of in nice curls it pops off in big chunks. this is the only time a would use a dull knife, but as i mentioned it is no longer functioning as a knife it is a "drawwedge".
I also chase one ring at a time, primarily because with the drawwedge technique it is easier to wedge off one layer instead of 3 or more at a time.
I have very little experience compared to others here, but i think choosing a ring depends largely on your ability to chase rings, and by ability i mean patience. it takes more time to chase a thin ring just because you need to be more careful. if the top two rings of heartwood are 1/16" thick and the 3rd one down is 3/16" thick i'll go down to that thick one every time, it's just not worth the effort to chase a thin ring if there is a thicker one within a reasonable distance. but...chasing a thin ring is good practice ;)
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Chasing very, very thin hickory rings is good exercise. And with a dull draw knife to boot >:D. Enjoy the experience.ART
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kirk, take a look at your last picture. Your active ring is probably the one in the foreground right in front of your tool. Is that correct? The other rings are visible as line going across the stave. Those are violations. The darker wood is the good growth the punky yellow rings are the early wood which is not good. If you make that ring in the foreground your back then you have to remove all the rings above it. Check to make sure you have enough wood to make a bow if you go down that far. You'll need an 1.5 in under that ring anyway. As you enter that punky lousy growth your d knife will chatter that's how you know. I'd go up along the right removing upper rings first, down the middle and up the left side. I'm alway looking on the right for my ring on the edge that way ifI make a mistake and cut through it won't matter because that will come out when you rough out the bow. Alternatively, Pat likes to chase one ring all the way down. Might be a good idea for you rather than rushing it like I do Gotta go. Questions welcomed. :) Jawge
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Thanks a bunch to all of you guys for getting me off on the right foot. i'm an old carpenter that savvy's wood in many ways, but this is a whole new world here, and i'm looking forward to it. those last few posts from DMC, ridge runner, golfer, and George, really helped a lot.
so here we go.... i had a really hard time zooming in on those very thin rings, even with my glasses. i got the lighting real good and sanded the edges of each side of the stave so i could really study the ring thickness and uniformity all the way down the stave. i got some more photos here for you guys.
here are the ends.... i've got two arrows marking out my rings of choice. the first one in red is a pretty good ring all the way down about an 1/8" thick. there is one spot it thins down to a a heavy 1/16" i'm not real fond of, but i think it can be manageable if i'm careful in that area.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings010.jpg)
Now the pencil line i've put down the entire stave length has an excellent ring with 3/16" coming out of trhe fades evenly on both limbs. i believe this ring would be better, but it only leaves 1.5" at the grip.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings015.jpg)
if i use the first usable ring that i haven't even started chasing, i'll have another 1/4" in thickness all the way leaving 1.75" at the grip. i'm kind of leaning towards that one. and call the thicker ring my "Go to " ring if the first one doesn't come out.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings017.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings018.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings016.jpg)
Here is a shot of the the back..... the very tip shows my first ring barely exposed marked in red on the end. i thing i'll get all the others down to the one i want, and call it practice... then i'll go for the last ring with more confidence.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings023.jpg)
So i have 4 rings to remove to get to the first good one and 6 to remove if i go down to the thicker one.....
unfortunately, i didn't have enough time to really get into it today as far as chasing rings. using that planer blade as a draw knife without handles didn't have enough control. So i stoped work on the stave and decided to cut one of them in half and make a draw knife and a push knife. here's a few photos of my building them. i got the pins epoxied in, and will finish em up tomorrow. that red oak should hold up well for handles....
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings008.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings020.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/wood%20Bows%20and%20staves/chasingrings022.jpg)
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I think I probably do it the hard way, but I don't usually lay out the bow until after I have all my rings down, because I can't tell where exactly I want to put my handle till I look at the grain and how the wood looks over all. From the ends of that looks like you have a good ring picked out and plenty wiggle room to work with, as long as that hammer is to scale :) Looks like near the tips it is about 1 1/8 or 1.5 wide, but my eyeballs lie to me all the time. I would have to say that you need to take off the 3 rings like others have said one at a time, just get up to the line near where you have your handle and take that one all the way to the other tip. Then get on that next line about 6-8" above it and proceed to the one about 1.5 above that and keep going till you get those off. You can decide at that point if the over all bow is going to be long enough to take off the tip where the last 2 rings are already cut through near your buffer in the pic or if you want that extra length to take the next two off before you get to the one you have marked. It's kind of blurry on the thinner lines, but if that is the opposite end of the photo in the vice ( the end that isn't near the buffer) you may be down to the one you want after you take the ones you've already cut through off. I would do like the rest of the guys have said and go slow and take one ring at a time, it will save you some cussing in the end :) Since this is your first bow there isn't any hurry and I know how excited you are to shoot it, but if you hurry you might end up breaking it once you start to bend it or get a lot less weight than you want. About how long is that stick and what draw length/weight are you looking for, I may have missed it, but I didn't notice it in your post.
Just remember it's not going to be the best bow you ever make, but it will be the most special and you'll do ok. My first one isn't tillered perfect and it's not the best lookin' bow, but I think it's still my favorite just because I had so much fun making it and it slung an arrow just fine. It doesn't matter how fast it goes it matters how excited you get about shooting it and you can't shoot a broken one ;D
Looks like your well on your way though and that's a nice stick to start on for sure.
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Thanks for the input Michael, i've got 65" of stave here, and would like 50# @ 28.5" or there abouts ....
i hunt with around 57-60 pounds, but prefer 50 for formstump shooting and 3D. i have a lot more fun with a lighter bow i can obsess with and shoot 300 arrows a day if i get the urge. i cant do that with the heavier bows and have fun at it.....It hurts too much the next day...
heY David, is the early growth, late growth different on hardwood trees that softwood? i should know that one. :-[
i've always refered to it as winter/summer growth, and i've always thought the soft grain, which is typically lighter color and wider in a softwood tree grows in the summer, and the harder narrow grain was the winter growth rings....
could you guys set me straight here? this softer crunchy wood on the osage is thiner than the hard grain. ???.... which one is the winter growth ring, and is that the early or late growth ring the way you guys term it? i'm feeling kind of stupid here... i should know this stuff being a carpenter and all...
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Kirk, the osage is dormant in the winter, the early growth is spring growth and is soft and porous compared to the late summer growth. Actually with osage the ratio is the important thing, you like to see about 70% summer growth. My opinion is that as long as you have a good ring on the belly and a good ring on the back you are in good shape. I don't worry too much about what's in the middle. Looking good so far Kirk. Steve
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You are on the right track Kirk. Evidently I left 3 rings for you to chase, sorry for the confusion. Plan on using the first fat ring, and have the next for a backup. 1 1/2" at the handle is perfect, fat of that you'll be taking off anyway. But always leave yourself room for surprises if you can. I don't think that stave has many knot or features such that which ring you pick will become an issue anyway. Just get down to it without marking it if you can.
Plan on making your bow 60# @ 28". You can always adjust it after you get it shot in. Again, leaving room for surprises. Also, your bow will draw 60# in this weather, I imagine the humidity in your shop is below 30% right now, and perhaps as low as 55# when it's 90 and 90% humidity this summer. Nature of the beast.
Take your time buddy. If it takes a week to get the first ring off end to end, so be it. Time is the one ingredient you can pour into a project in abundance and do no harm whatsoever. Doing nothing is a problem, but doing stuff slow always works in your favor. We'll still be here if you don't get done until March... seriously, March.
Be thinking about a caul or method to straighten that stave. I think I've posted picture of mine. Looks very similar to a form for laying up glass. You'll use it to clamp to, as you apply heat and correct portions of the stave. I like to put about 2" of reflex into a stave before I start tillering, and then finish nearly straight or perhaps a smidge of reflex. You can do it without a caul. Just be thinking of how to hem it up while you correct and clamp it. Up against a stiff plank with shims will work, bearing in mind we'll be shaping it in two planes (side to side and back to belly).
Have you got a "paint stripper" type heat gun?
We need that if possible. We actually need it pretty much as requisite, and if you are gonna do many more selfbows it's an investment that will pay back many, many times it's cost. I'd make it a top 3 in terms of tools one must have... at least to work with osage, vine maple and the misshapen stuff, even the perfect staves. I thnk they are about $30 at the home center.
You and hegde on this other thread got my mind wandering to my own projects occasionally. Thanks for that. This passion has carried me for nearly a decade now, psychologically. I'm almost embarassed to say it's as much a part of my nature, karma if you wiil, now as my family, hunting or nearly any other aspect of life.
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Kirk:
Well, I for one feel much better now. It looks like you are on the right track.
DCM4 is right. Take your time. It is OK to think about the smallest of things for a day or two.
To answere your question:
Yes the ring structure in Hardwoods and Softwoods is different. It can get quite complicated if taken too far. People have written doctoral theses on the subject. However, I have yet to need most of what little I ever knew about the subject.
Comman Hardwoods are actually divided in to two major groups.
Ring Porous (ash, oak, Osage and hickory are a few in this category). Big wide, easy to see rings.
Diffuse Porous (Birch, beech dogwood and rosewood are in this one). Small narrow, difficult to tell apart rings.
Softwoods. Which which are almost all evergreen, and are often harder that some hardwoods, are in a category by themselves and I know little about them.
There are all kinds tree species, and vareations among the same species of tree, that bend and break most all of the rules.
David
David
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Thanks a bunch guys! :D
I am in no hurry to get this one done at all. i have many other projects in the works too. But i thought if i set up a work station in my shop i can leave it set up in a vise. i can work on it a bit each time i head out there while the shop iis warming up. i've got a wood stove out there and a large propane heater, but it takes a good hour to warm it up in there.
Chasing rings on this hard wood is good exercise, and gets a guy warmed up good while the shop is heating up. I'm going to savor the journey work slow but steady on it, and see if i can do this stave justice..... i have every intention of doing you proud David....
i do have a decent heat gun, a steamer, and enough clamps to put new gunnel's on a 16' drift boat. LOL.. so i'm good to go there. i've got tons of stuff for form materials here, and may just use an older fiber glass bow form i need to replace anyway. we'll see...
i'll keep after it guys, and post my progress as i go here....
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Kirk, I'm in the same boat, well maybe a smaller boat, since I lack some of your wood working skills. Thanks for asking these questions. I'm learning along with you. :)