Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: TBod on November 29, 2009, 06:46:35 am
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I've had problems with string alignment jumping back after steaming before. I'm thinking of doing this now.
1.Steam the handle for 1,5 hours
2 Put it the form inside house with a fan blowing , no heat
3 Keep it in the form for 24 hours
4. Check the alignment
5. Back in the form and tempere the belly side of the handle with a heatgun. This to prevent it from jumping back.
Pic showing the handle and the off alignment. Its about 1/2" off.
Any advice or thoughts??
Thanks
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Yeah, you can steam the handle and keep it straight. Dry heat, IMO, will benefit your more long term since it shrinks the woods cells mimiking the seasoning process.
Since you only need to straighten instead of recurving you don't need to steam for an hour and a half, 20-25 min. should do it. You don't need to use a form either. Just bend "past" what you consider straight and then back to straight. It will hold that position if you do things correctly.
But first you should check and make sure you have both limbs/tips straight. Handle should be the last part of the bow to straighten.
ART
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How does the string line up at brace? If it is off the minute amount as shown in the pic it would be more trouble than it is worth to move the string over 1/2". Also If you had left the handle area full width you can remove wood from one side or the other to line the string up on the bow. Same goes with the tips. Leave them wider until the bow is tillered or almost tillered so if you need a minute adjustment you can easily do so without steaming, boiling or using dry heat to bend the wood.
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thats what i do pat, i have never steamed to get it good i allways take my wood off to offset the off string. maybe not right but it works for me. simple ways for a simple mind. and us okies too.
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Thanks for the replies! appreciate it.
Sorry but I didn't get the answers I was looking for..
I'm past the wood remove strategy to fix the alignment. I wanted to follow the grain when laying out the bow and ignored the off alignment it lead to. When I have follow the alignment instead of the grain it usually leads to twisting or something. The stave was not straight.
It's to much to bend to use only dry heat to fix the alignment I think. So I figured steam then tempering to fix it permanently.
Thats really my question. Steam and then tempering, how about it?
Here's the front of it
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Can't you just use the missalignment to your advantage and shoot from the side closest to the sting? Or does it twist in your hand.
The bottom line with any bow is how it shoots not how it looks...
If you must straighten it, go for steam and bend it past the point which you want to allow for some recovery, It should only take a small angle of bend at the grip to ship the tips by 1/2 "
Del
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Can't shoot with it now cause one limb is better suited for toplimb and vice versa..
I'm going for steam and then securing the bend with tempering. It really wants to jump back to off alignment.
Anyway I want to bend it really bad :D
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if one limb is already better suited for the top/bottom
then why not just build for the opposite hand and sell/trade/give it to someone who shoots that side ;D
im sure they would like it
that way you get it finished and gain some experience for the next one
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If you steam the handle area you will add moisture. If then you temper the handle area you are
force-drying the wood and this will cause it to check. You will need to wait for the wood to dry before tempering and I still don't believe it is going to accomplish what you are trying to do.
Will you post a pic of the bow braced looking from end to end so we can see how the string lines up. You can't tell anything from an unbraced wood bow.
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T-bod,remember you can use dry heat on the handle,while weighting a limb down,and get your correction, without tempering the wood.I do it on nearly every bow I build.Just heat it slowly till it bends how you want it. God Bless
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I would straighten the limb tips first with heat, then bend the handle to align the string also with heat. If your handle looks a little lop sided after bending, glue a piece of wood on the concave side, shape it to match the other side and cover it with leather. If you glue on a piece of wood there will be no going back to like it was before bending.
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Thanks guys!
I'm digesting the info from you all.
I`ll probably steam and tempere, could be exiting ;D
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I don't vote for either, TBod. LOL. You probably are not going to like what I have to say. I prefer to back up and offer a little advice and you know what they say about free unsolicited advice. This is a classic case of you trying to dictate the design to the stave. I prefer to allow the stave to determine the design.You said the stave was crooked to start and you followed the grain. I assume you mean the lateral grain and that is outstanding! The thing to do is leave the handle full width and the nocks a good inch wide and then you can adjust the string tracking accordingly. I can tell you how if you are interested for future efforts. I would say ordinarily that getting the string to track is not worth the effort for the small amount it is off in this case. However, I have a greater concern about the handle. It seems awfully narrow and thin. What are the dimensions of the handle? Jawge
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BTW you only have to worry about using dry heat on really green wood. Steam or dry. Your choice? :) Jawge
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Looks like your mind is made up on the steam and temper. I would at least follow Pats advice and let the bow dry before tempering.
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Tbod:
I wouldn't risk using steam at this point on a bow that far along. I like to use steam early on when there is plenty of wood left for major corrections. Besides, steam has a tendency to dry the wood as well as wet the wood lifting grain or even cracks from further drying (1.5 hours of steam is extreme). I'd use dry heat with the back of the bow protected. Heat the zone between the arrows with more focus on the handle area. I'd hold the bow fixed at the white arrows and apply pressure at the yellow arrow. As already posted, you will need to take the correction a little past center and hold it. I would heat correct and temper all at the same time if thats what you are after because once you've corrected, any heat added later on will erase what you had. I believe string alignment will be a problem if not reduced. You ask for input, there is mine.
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh213/colevy/alignment.jpg)
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The amount of dry heat needed for tempering to hold your alignment is more than sufficient alone for straightening. So why even steam? But steaming alone will correct your problem, even at this stage. Steaming and then heat tempering will work also but is more involved and unnecessary in my opinion.
If previous straightening attempts have failed you then you simply didn't over correct and bring back to straight. ART
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Thanks for the response!
Appreicate the effort you made guys! Good explaining gmc, a pic is easy to understand.
I have fixed it with dry heat now . Don't know what I was I going on about really.. Was a bit off my self..Still is probably
George. The handle is 1,25" times 1,25" maybe it looks narrower because the limbs are 2,75" wide ate fades. If doing the wood reduction strategy to the fix the alignment that you and Pat suggests it would have meant not following the grain. I may be off again.. My orientation of the grain is the small drying cracks that covers the back of the bow. So I followed the cracks lying out the bow and ignoring the off alignment.
If I understand what you are saying I should have ignore the grain(cracks) and compensate for the alignment instead? Is it ok not follow the grain at the tips and the handle?
If I didn't have the cracks to follow I wouldn't have any idea of the grain orientation. It's Maple and I donīt split with wedges and axe I use my chainsaw device, thats not right but I like it.
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The bow exploaded!
I'm trying to understand why. It's kind of interesting. Here's my own conclusions:
1. 2" of reflex on a 62" bow with 28" draw when tempering makes tiller process more crucial.
2. I think it it was a tensionbreak(s) not much set before braking. The pic shows that the top of the crown had a straight break and the edges were more intact. The top of the crown do more more work than the edges, especially on a high crown.
3. The bow was 2# underweight according to massprinciple.
4. Tiller wasn't perfect.
Don't think it was to dry, it's about 50% air humidity where I stored it.
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To bad,Looks like dry rot to me,where did you get the wood and how was it stored before you started your bow ??? Hickory is bad about that if it isn't handled right during the drying process but is almost indestructible when it is treated right. I had several stave's do that once when I was storing it in an open end shed,I checked several pieces and it all would break under tension so I cut it all up into fire wood. :)
Pappy
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Yes I did not t handle it correct during the drying process and stuff. Nowadays I usually rough a bow out green If I have the time.
You say it's a tension break right Pappy?
The pictures of different breaks in tbb1 is really dark a hard to understand for me.
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Tbod, that's too bad. But I broke a couple (hundred). 28" for a 62" bow is pushing the design limit. That's too short. What I was saying was a crooked, twisted, character stave is not my choice for a pyramid bow. One reason is because on character bows I leave the handle wide and the nocks wide so I can adjust them to track the string. If you want I can describe how I do it. You absolutely did the right thing by following the lateral grain. That's not the issue. You can still leave handle wide and nocks wide until you string the bow for the first time. Jawge
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Darn! I hate to see that. Man it sure has the MO of being too dry. A bow under weight on the mass principle would also support low a moisture content in the wood. How long did we wait after our heat gun session?
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Jawge, why are you breaking that many bows?
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Jawge!
Please explain how you do that alignment stuff with the handle and tips. I am very confused on that subject..I wanted a short bow so I could practice inside my house with it. That induced reflex did the job of breaking it I suspect epically if it has been weakend by bad drying like Pappy says
gmc. I waited a couple of days after heat gun. I kept monitoring the weight and knew I was underweight from massprinciple. Still I pushed it on, I could have done something to get back on massprinciple track. Like go for a 25# draw instead and lower the drawweight from 50# to 45# or not put in the reflex. Massprinciple is great gave me a warning but I chose to challenge it anyway. The MO ought to be 8-10% in the bow since it has been about 50% inside, outside extremely high the last month. Don't have a MO meter for wood though. The ring count is 6/inch on that Maple. Really the opposite of dense if I am right. Thats why I made it so wide.
Thanks!
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I usually don't bend them in the handle[to much wood to move] I tweak the tips or somewhere along the limb.It is easier to bend and seems to hold what you do to it better. :) For some reason I thought it was Hickory[Should read closer] I am with George ,that is pretty short for maple and 28 in. draw. :) Buy the way gmc he has broke a lot of bows because he had made a bunch of bows. I have broke a bunch also. :) I have broke 2 or 3 in row several times.That just kind of goes with it. :)
Pappy
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I know Pappy, I was trying to poke at Jawge a little. ;D
Tbod:
MO = Modus opernadi (method of operating)
Time to start your next project.
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Hickory is very strong in tension so when we see a hickory bow break across the back we know from experience that the wood was not cured properly or handled properly while curing. The break in your bow is definitely a tension break.
Lately there have been quite a few bows that have really blown(one of mine included). These catastrophic explosions have been rare in my bow building career. I have had one limb break, both limbs fold over simultaneously or just bend badly but to see a bow blow into many pieces on both limbs is rare IMO. Sorry your bow broke but if you have learned from your experience it is not a failure. ;)
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Ok now I know what MO means, IMO= in my opinion? There's something I learned.. :D
Hope I learned something else. We will see on the next bows.
Sure wish I had the blow on a movie, it was pure destruction.
I have had three explosions and one bendover break so far, seems like I am more of a explosion kind of guy then a bend over..
Thanks!
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Tbod, I am happy to do that. So let's say you are working on a character stave that you suspect may have alignment issues. Leave handle full width and nocks a good inch wide. That is when strung the string may be off to the left side. Leave the handle full width. That way you can remove wood from the right side when shaping the handle. Brings the string back to center very easily. Also, if the string is off to the left, as it is in our example, cut the left side of both nocks deeper. Brings the string to center. Later when you shape the nocks you can remove wood so that the grooves are even. You can even remove a little more wood with your rasp to even everything up. Please ask questions. :) Jawge
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gmc, the school of hard nocks is a tough taskmaster. I've probably broken more bows than you've started. :) Jawge
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Hi thought I might comment, I totally agree with george and pat and pappy. I was at a show of arts one time and I had a maple stave, I had processed myself and had a pattern cut out, I slowly worked the stave to tillering height and it looked real good at about 26 inches If I recall ,I was just working the limbs and training the grain and boom,I had two bows. Maple is a light wood and in my experience , I would not use it for ancient bows . However it makes great lam bows . I put sassafras in the same category. But both will deliver a light and fast bow. I got several staves drying now for a couple of years. I wanted to mention , the handle is always left till last, so if for no other reason you saved yourself time building if it breaks. It appears the bow was doomed from the start, dry wood and too short.So much for my two cents. Denny
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You can use it. Just make it longer and wider is you suspect it might be somehow inadequate. :) Jawge
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Jawge!
Ok I understand but. That means not following the grain IMO. It's ok with the handle section cause that's not bending. The tips however are working. I did what you mean to some extent in this cause not with the handle but with the overall line. I went a bit over grain path otherwise the string would have been off even more.
Follow the grain or alignment can't do both on character bow.
Still confused in other words..
Denny
This one broke at 27" almost finished and no warning.
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You are violating the grain just by shaping a bow. The angle that the grain runs off is the critical part. If the angle is too steep the bow is at risk. On the bows I make, the last 6" or so are non-working so that usually isn't a consideration.
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TBod,
First let me say, good job on sticking to the principals of bow building and trying your best to not violate lateral grain in any way. You've got the right idea.
What George is saying is that you can help string alignment in handle and knock areas. In the handle it looks like you've got it. It looks like up towards the knocks is where it became confusing. Like he said, if you cut the one knock groove in deeper, it will set the string more to the side you want. Technically, this is a large violation of lateral grain, but even if your bow bends way out to the tips, it should not be a problem, especially if you just leave the knock area a tad stronger.
But the advice you've been given is good. It looks like your wood was not up to the task, and that the 28" was a bit too much to expect for 62".
Keep at 'er!
Coyote Pup
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Got it now! That totally makes sense.
Thanks Pat and Coyote.