Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: HoBow on November 20, 2009, 12:36:23 pm
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I apologize if this topic has been addressed, but I could not find it. All things being equal, if a 60 lb bow shoots a 600 grain arrow at 160 fps and a 50 lb bow shoots a 500 grain arrow the same speed, is the relative effectiveness the same while hunting? I'm guessing the heavier arrow would do more damage, but if it is a pass through shot, does it really matter? What would the difference be if 600 grain arrow in the 60 lb bow was slower than the 500 grain arrow in the 50 lb. bow? Let's assume the shot placement is spot on for both arrows. The thread about the lightest bow to use ethically while hunting got me to thinking about this.....I hope this makes sense to someone out there. ;D
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I apologize if this topic has been addressed, but I could not find it. All things being equal, if a 60 lb bow shoots a 600 grain arrow at 160 fps and a 50 lb bow shoots a 500 grain arrow the same speed, is the relative effectiveness the same while hunting? I'm guessing the heavier arrow would do more damage, but if it is a pass through shot, does it really matter? What would the difference be if 600 grain arrow in the 60 lb bow was slower than the 500 grain arrow in the 50 lb. bow? Let's assume the shot placement is spot on for both arrows. The thread about the lightest bow to use ethically while hunting got me to thinking about this.....I hope this makes sense to someone out there. ;D
E=1/2M V2 Is the energy in the arrow, so if the velocity is the same the heavier arrow has more energy.
If you increased arrow weight say 20grn at a time and measured velocity for each increase, you could then plot E for each arrow weight, there would me a maximum where the bow was most efficient, above that weight of arrow the arrow speed would fall and it lose energy, below that weight the increased speed wouldn't make up for the loss of mass.
This opimum depends on the bow design, for a warbow it is most efficient with a heavy arrow.
Del
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Hey, if your arrow slips perfectly between ribs as long as you have a sharp broadhead even a 300gr arrow from a 30# bow will probably be good, however in real hunting situations we gotta expect all kinds of variables where penetration will be indered,.......for that reason I rather shoot the heavyes bow & arrow combination I'm comfortable with.
.......the perfect world isn't there and things will go wrong ;)
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I agree with Manny. All else being equal, shoot the heaviest you're capable of drawing. However, if you're more comfortable and accurate with the 50# bow, then by all means don't try the 60# one. Just save it for practice.
Most deer are pretty "easy" to kill, and even easy to get a shot on broadside if you use a stand. Anything bigger and I might consider the extra oomph necessary, but not quite for Bambi :)
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Funny how we are going to hi tech mathemetics to quantify what some skin wearing rock knockers figured out while trying to feed their families! Man I love this sport!
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Funny how we are going to hi tech mathemetics to quantify what some skin wearing rock knockers figured out while trying to feed their families! Man I love this sport!
Very true ;D! But thanks to genius thinkers like Tim Baker, Steve Gardner, Marc St. Louis, et al our simple wooden sticks shoot better than their simple wooden sticks ;)
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I hate to admit it ;D but I agree with Manny.. ;) in real hunting situations there are too many variables to consider when asking what is the best equipment to use.. If it can go wrong it will.. use what gear you are comfortable with and practice, practice.. a well places arrow from a light bow penetrating lets say eight inches... will kill far better than a poor placed arrow from a 75 pounder with 600 grain arrows going all the way through.. use what you know.. and remember to pick a spot...Hawk
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I'm suprised no one has brought up the arrow design factor. what does every one think Dr. Ashby's study? Not trying to start a new thread here, just that it's related to penetration.
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I'm suprised no one has brought up the arrow design factor. what does every one think Dr. Ashby's study? Not trying to start a new thread here, just that it's related to penetration.
....I try get the highes FOC I can on my arrows
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A thoughtful question,
with lots of variables,
a heavy bow generally propels the same arrow from a lighter bow faster,
imparting more energy to the arrow;
but this is not always the case however,
a lighter draw bow may have very efficient limbs that are faster than another bow of another design with a heavier draw,
by properly matching the arrow to the bow you may get as much speed from the lighter bow as you do the heavier bow;
however as you begin to shoot a heavier arrow the heavier bow will continue to propel the heavier arrow at a given speed while the lighter bow with fast limbs but with a weaker draw will begin to propel the heavier arrows slower, reducing penetration, range, etc.
Since bows kill mostly by bleeding lighter bows work very well,
until you engage heavier targets, with more tissue and bone to penetrate,
in which case a faster heavier arrow will penetrate much better,
increasing the lethality, and perhaps increasing your range.
Disclaimer: Discussing this topic may cause brain damage
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Shoot the heaviest bow you can shoot accurately, and shoot heavier arrows. 600 grains is better than 300 grains, as I'd rather have a pass through with two holes leaking than one. Hunting, for me, is all about penetration, not trajectory, because I don't shoot at game past 20 yards.
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DEAD IS DEAD....THE DEER DOESN'T KNOW IF YOU SHOT HIM WITH A 45# BOW OR A 145# BOW. IT'S ALL ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT AND SHARP BROAD HEADS. ;D SHOOT WHAT YOU SHOOT THE BEST WITH AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT WHAT EVERYONE ELSE THINKS...... ;)
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Personally, I've always like the idea of taking a deer hunting bow out for SUV's. But hey- maybe that's just me :)
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...THE DEER DOESN'T KNOW IF YOU SHOT HIM WITH A 45# BOW OR A 145# BOW.
Not completly true, hit a scapula or some heavy bone and there will be a difference, ( things go wrong sometimes, no matter how good of a shot you are).......than again deer is pretty soft game, but still...
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"But thanks to genius thinkers like Tim Baker, Steve Gardner, Marc St. Louis, et al our simple wooden sticks shoot better than their simple wooden sticks"
Kegan your aweful generous, have you met these knuckle heads? ;D
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Funny how we are going to hi tech mathemetics to quantify what some skin wearing rock knockers figured out while trying to feed their families! Man I love this sport!
Very true ;D! But thanks to genius thinkers like Tim Baker, Steve Gardner, Marc St. Louis, et al our simple wooden sticks shoot better than their simple wooden sticks ;)
Surely TTBB etc show that this is not true...the Holmgaard design etc are shown to be be pretty good models for what we are re-discovering today. I agree that they are to be commended for publishing their work, but doubltless the skin wearing rock knockes haded their skills down in a practical or oral tradition.
I though that on a site like this we'de outgrown the sold streotypes of early man as stupid. :(
(Sorry if you were just being funny, I just hear so much 'dumb neanderthat rubish' it winds me up) :-[
Del
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Surely TTBB etc show that this is not true...the Holmgaard design etc are shown to be be pretty good models for what we are re-discovering today. I agree that they are to be commended for publishing their work, but doubltless the skin wearing rock knockes haded their skills down in a practical or oral tradition.
I though that on a site like this we'de outgrown the sold streotypes of early man as stupid. :(
(Sorry if you were just being funny, I just hear so much 'dumb neanderthat rubish' it winds me up) :-[
Del
I guess it is just a matter of perspective and what you consider smart. If being smart means knowing quantum mechanics and how to apply it, then prehistoric man was not very smart. If being smart means being able to survive in the "wilds", making and designing tools that work to survive, then prehistoric man was very smart. Then again by either of those rules, I'm REALLY dumb. ;D A modern and a prehistoric education are not comparable directly when viewed from outside of their respective times. The ability to use and understand an eduction in whatever context and then be able to move beyond it to solve a problem, that is intelligence as far as I'm concerned. If we were to meet prehistoric man on his own terms, in his environment, he'd probably think we are the stupid ones, and he'd be right from his perspective.
As far as bow design is concerned, it is again a matter of perspective. The holmguard is a high performance hunting bow that can be made in the field without special tools, glues, cauls, heat sources etc. It's the equivalent of a pump shot gun, you can beat the snot out of it and still provide diner. A "modern" bow that has been laminated, reflexed, deflexed, and any other "exed" you can think of, is a performance "target" bow (even when that target is game) that pushes the physical abilities of design and material as we understand them. It's the equivalent of an Olympic target rifle. So which is the better bow? That depends on whether I've been dumped in the hinterlands and I need six months to walk out, or I'm trying to win an archery competition at a world class shoot. I'd go with the Holmguard for the first, or I'd be on the phone for the second.
Swamp
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...THE DEER DOESN'T KNOW IF YOU SHOT HIM WITH A 45# BOW OR A 145# BOW.
Not completly true, hit a scapula or some heavy bone and there will be a difference, ( things go wrong sometimes, no matter how good of a shot you are).......than again deer is pretty soft game, but still...
Actually, I've dropped several deer in there tracks hitting them in the spine with my 45-50# bows...with any kind of reasonably vital hit a 50 # bow will do the job just fine. I've also shot them with a 70# compound shooting machine in the front shoulder and not recovered them......In my experience it's all about shot placement. You can even lose a deer shot with a 30-06 too if you don't hit'em right, that's all just part of hunting. It happens to every hunter at some point no matter how good a shot you are or what weapon you use.
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Well said Ryano, shot placement is the key to a clean kill, your equipment used is not nearly as important as where the arrow ends up once released. my wife just shot a muledeer with a light poundage selfbow, arrow went in about ten inches. deer went down quickly.. shot placement! saved the day.
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Yeah Ryano,
That's why Howard Hill hunted with a 90# bow,
it's all about shot placement!
Ha.....
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Del- I never meant to say prehistoric man was dumb. No harm intended :)
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" A 50# BOW WITH WELL MATCHED ARROWS WILL TAKE ANY BIG GAME IN NORTH AMERICA " - Art Young -
....However, good old Mr. Young hunted with 80-85# bows,...wander why ;D
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Del- I never meant to say prehistoric man was dumb. No harm intended :)
;D..no prob I just a grumpy cat.
Del
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Del- I never meant to say prehistoric man was dumb. No harm intended :)
LOL
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Howard Hill was not the norm. Not everyone can shoot a heavy poundage bow accurately. On the other end of it, I've heard several guys who shoot heavy draw weight bows claim that they can hit anything with a 45# bow because they can't get a clean release and there not as steady at full draw. Maybe this is why Hill shot such a heavy draw weight bow? (Also Byron Fergison?) Who knows? I just know it doesn't take that much to run arrow through a deer.
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Howard Hill was not the norm. Not everyone can shoot a heavy poundage bow accurately. On the other end of it, I've heard several guys who shoot heavy draw weight bows claim that they can hit anything with a 45# bow because they can't get a clean release and there not as steady at full draw. Maybe this is why Hill shot such a heavy draw weight bow? (Also Byron Fergison?) Who knows? I just know it doesn't take that much to run arrow through a deer.
I think Hill shot the extra heavy weights because he wanted to pretty much kill anything he came up against, so he shot the heavier weights because he could. We all know a heavy arrow carries more momentum, so if he could shoot a 700 gr arrow quickly just by using a heavy weight. With Ferguson, I think it is jsut a matter of making the release easier (if your release is a little off, a heavier bow would jsut rip the arrow straight at the target).
Heavier weights aren't that hard to get used to. My spindly little arms are simply pathetic, but I can drop an arrow into a target at 20, 30, 40 or so yards. Just... not for very long ;D
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I hunt big game alot, my take on the heavier bows is that sometimes things go wrong, deer moves when arrow is in flight, hits a limb, something happens and arrow hits a shoulder, a spine etc... heavier bows can make the shot deadly instead of losing the animal. no one ever wants these things to happen but if it does shooting the heaviest bow you can handle can be the deciding factor for a harvest. ...... Dangerous game die just as easily as deer with a good hit, but a bad hit and not enough penetration because of a lighter bow can be not fun. If you hunt deer like whitetails lighter bows may work well, but I would suggest at least 55# for everything larger than a turkey...60+ for elk, bear, muledeer, hogs.. hope you find a winning combo for you brother.. Hawk
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Yeah Ryano,
That's why Howard Hill hunted with a 90# bow,
it's all about shot placement!
Ha.....
It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that he hunted elephants could it?
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HH used a #110 for his elephant kill.
For most people shooting med or smaller thin skinned light bows do well, but a heavier bow is superior in larger game, where more range is needed etc. Also many people are interested in other venues of the bow, as in the study of war, strength training other
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It probally had to do with Howard Hill being such a big man, and after meeting Byron Ferguson at the Classic, he is a big man also. I always hunted with heavier weight bows when I was younger, 50, now I'm backing off to 55# to 60#. I guess you either get smarter or lose body muscle and mass. Now, I sharpen the piss out of my points.
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HH was shooting 70-80# bows into his 70s, 100-150 shots a day,
According to HH the reason a man cannot work up to a heavy bow is because he is not willing to discipline himself with dailey work outs increasing bow weights,
Of course some people simply don't want to pull a heavy bow,
But to others it's part of the thrill