Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Mar on November 15, 2009, 03:58:00 pm
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While I'm waiting to receive Vol 1 of the TBB, I had this skinny stave from splitting a knotty log. This piece had lots of outer rot so ended up chasing a ring and shaping it. It's in it's rough shape now but want to know if I'm wasting my time with this piece. It will be 68" and will be happy if I can make it to 40-45#. The widest part is 1 3/8" below the grip and 1 1/2 above the grip, I wonder if I should narrow it down above the grip? You'll see in the last picture where I mean, there's a knot just above the handle.
Here are some pictures:
Top
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020355.jpg)
Right side
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020356.jpg)
Belly
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020357.jpg)
Left side
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020358.jpg)
Handle
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020359.jpg)
Handle back, rough profile.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020360.jpg)
How it will be held.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020364.jpg)
String along the back
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020365.jpg)
String midway
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020366.jpg)
So what is the verdict?
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its going too be cool!!!...take your time that looks like a goodone...snake
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I'd say go for it. I'm no yew expert but it looks like plenty enough to get a 45# to 50# bow. As far as the string lining up you won't be able to tell that until the first low brace. I think I would add a simple backing like rawhide, silk or linen just for insurance. ;)
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There is allot of potentail there, Go for it. ;)
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have fun. Pat B is on track: you'll want a backing, most likely...maybe not...see if it blows!
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You should definately be able to get 45# out of that. I agree with pat though I would probably back it with silk, It looks like you cut some growth rings on the back but it's hard to tell looking at pictures. Should be a cool looking bow when it's finished.
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What you see is unfinished chasing at that end, that end needs to be shorten anyway.
Quick questions...When shaving/rasping the belly, do I need to chase a ring to keep my thickness?
If I do then the bell would have the same profile as the back then, right?
Thanks for replies. So far the best have been since I got started are, "Kill it with the band-saw, don't look back" and "See if it blows" by radius. LOL!
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I definately would not shorten it anymore you will be able to keep a higher draw weight and draw length if you leave it a 64". And no you don't have to follow a growth ring on the belly you will have to cut through them in the tillering process.
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Stave needs to be cut at 68", might be able to get another inch or 2 out of it though.
Yeah that was what I thought about the belly, just wondering how one keeps an even thickness but I'm leaving it a bit fat till I read some more.
I really appreciate the help/ comments.
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So you want to cut it down to 64"? How long is it now?
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Sorry, my mind is set on 64 right now, probably because I made a 64" string today. The bow will be 68". I going back to edit my posts.
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Ok in my opinion 68" may be a little too long for 45# or 50# I would probably go 66". Your 64" String would be almost the right size then too. I think your good to go on it otherwise. Should look pretty nice when it's all finished!
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String was made for my recurve. Why exactly would 68" be too long? I don't understand that part, my draw length is 29-30", might be less now that I'm older.
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glad i could make ya laugh at least.
make a string about 70 inches long for the initial tillering phase. when you finally decide on length, file nocks. inform that sucker that it is going to learn to bend or else you will break it! that's how i do it..."look you, you're gonna bend if it's the last thing i do, or i'll break you into pieces" .
After you can pull it to draw weight while moving the tips 10 inches or so from initial long- stringing, shorten the string. As lots of guys can attest to, the long string hides tillering errors.
it looks pretty wide. so far i find yew works best with a narrow profile and deep limbs: takes less set. However, Keenan would say otherwise and i guess he's right, he's got more experience with yew and similar woods than i do.
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I didn't realize you had such a long draw I was just thinking in terms of a 28" draw. There is nothing wrong with 68" inches it's just that yew could very easily handle being shorter, but if your drawing it 30" you will probably want to leave it 68" to reduce set and help with stack.
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jm is right: i made a 57" yew flatbow draw 28" this year: 52# at 28"...mega fast despite set and string follow
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Sure go for it. Yew doesn't grow on trees ( at least not in NH). :) Let it bend in the handle 30" is pretty long draw for a 67 in ntn bow. Jawge
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Jawge- I'm curious as to why you think 30" draw on a 67" ntn bow may be too long. I've always though you doubled the draw and added 10% and that is about as short as one should go. I've learned a great deal from your website and respect your knowledge, but I was curious....
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Ok I still haven't received my book so another questions. I'm at where I think the thickness should be close to tuning it slowly, 5/8", though I think the wider limb should be thin down some more to kind of match the flexibility of the skinnier, but I'm not sure.
So question is anyway, when should I start rounding the edges?
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As soon as you start tillering or flexing the limbs.
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Ok I still haven't received my book so another questions. I'm at where I think the thickness should be close to tuning it slowly, 5/8", though I think the wider limb should be thin down some more to kind of match the flexibility of the skinnier, but I'm not sure.
So question is anyway, when should I start rounding the edges?
I would want to have both limbs the same width if possible. put the long string on and start pulling on the tiller tree to see how it will bend. It looks like there is no sapwood on this stave, I would want to back it with rawhide. if it were me, I would not start rounding the edges until you have the bow tillered close and are reducing to your draw weight. looks like a cool stave, I love the snake. keep us posted.
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That's more what I meant, but I personally would round the edges after floor tillering or after brace. I usually try to do it early on because it feels safer and can affect the wieght more then I predict sometimes. I also don't see any need to back it just because it's heartwood I have a couple heartwood only bows, one around thirty five and the other around fifty pounds, near the same dimensions as mar's and they're holding up fine. I would back it with rawhide or silk because the back looks slightly violated, just my opinion though.
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i think with all heartwood bow, longer is better. The indians used to back all-heartwood bows with sinew, i think, and make shortbows. But ravenbeak made a longbow, all heartwood, and he let me draw it: it pulled strong and bent easily. With a 68" stick of yew, Mar, you can probly make a bow pulling 65 pounds and never risk a blow.
I round the edges off the back as soon as i get the whole thing bending evenly. I try to do this as early as possible. Then the rest of the tillering comes off the belly and the sides, occasionally returning to the back and rounding it over somewhat, when side-tillering has made it sharp again.
Let's see the nocks you made!
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Not so fast fellas! I'm learning a lot working with this wood and discovered it can easily get dings and what not. I did have one spot that was badly violated so, decided to chase the ring once more with my scraper I made out of a pvc pipe cutter. FREE!
I also narrowed the wider end and did some slight rounding and she's starting to flex, but still a bit stiff and will hit the wider side a bit more. Before I cut my nocks I would like to overlay them, I got hickory for that, guess I could rough them in just for the long string though. I still got to finish my tree some evening.
Man this is addictive, seems like every time I walk by it I need to touch it with something metal. ;D Soon I'll show you all where I'm at.
This is friggin awesome.
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hahahahahahahahahahahah
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Imagine that...using a spray bottle and wetting down the area you're about to scrape makes things way easier to chase.
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Finished chasing but have these knots and splits I need opinions on.
Back, 1/4 of the way from tip. Back and belly shots, bottom limb.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020367.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020368.jpg)
Upper limb, above handle, back and belly.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020369.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020370.jpg)
Roughly 12" from the tip along the side.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020371.jpg)
6" from the tip on the side but might disappear depending on how much I can file away.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020374.jpg)
Nice and shiny and wavy.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020379.jpg)
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VERY COOL,MAR!
likee...dontchoo worry about them knots, just get some superglue and some 2-part 5min epoxy and ur set.
remember bow making is not the same as wood carving: bow making is tillering. Come by and i'll let ya have this tiller tree on my wall. Moving soon.
Scott
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I'm kinda free tomorrow.
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Possible nock tip??? Arbutus and hickory.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020380.jpg)
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is that yew shredding all over your carpet!!! haha
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You think this glue is good enuf? I glued my string board on edge to make it long enuf and I was amazed at how strong the bond is. It is made by Loctite.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020381.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020382.jpg)
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is that yew shredding all over your carpet!!! haha
What you mean shredding...it's growing, taking over man. Eyeballing another stave to start on another, from the same knotty log but better. Plus I'm still trying to get motivated to finish my board bow...Yes I need that one done also so I can say I made that...unless it blows then I have wood for something else.
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get some C/A glue from a hobby store, it is the same as superglue, they have different thickneses and also a kicker that sets it instantly. get the thin glue and keep filling the knots, you can sand the glue off the surface. I would still back it with rawhide, just for added insurance. ;) but I dont like to do a lot of hard work just to watch it break :'( it is looking good..
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Mar, it should be fine. I'm just used to making longer bows. Tiller carefully. I would definitely let the handle bend. A bend in the handle bow should do ok at 67 in. I would also make the nock 1/2 inch from the ends. Thank you for the kind words.
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yew WANTS to bend. you can get away with a stiff-handled bow as short as 57" as i described earlier. Get your heat gun out: it might not even take much set if you belly-temper it TOWARD THE END of the tiller process.
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Mar, I am hunting this year with a bend in the handle hickory bow that is 60" ntn for my 26 in draw so the yew stave should be capable enough for you. Jawge
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I'm getting to the stage where I'm almost afraid to carry on in fear that I might screw it up but I have lots of yew, few more staves that have rotten sapwood so I can do more chasing. I would like to keep this one barebacked but we'll see. Had super glue so doing the knots.
So what shape would be best out of this picture? Flat and rectangular it's not but should it be like a long bow?
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/Wood045.jpg)
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top left.
"narrow and deep"
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So overlaying my tips, I need to flatten a spot to glue them on. That would be violating the rings but does it really matter?
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it doesn't matter at all. rasp it flat, glue em on, and giver.
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Well, if it were my stave I'd go with a flatbow. ELB's need more length. IMHO. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I've only only built yew flatbows. Jawge
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Well, if it were my stave I'd go with a flatbow. ELB's need more length. IMHO. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I've only only built yew flatbows. Jawge
what i found so far, Jawge, was that you can build d-shaped (d-ish!) yew longbows that bend all the way through out of short staves, you know, over 60 but definitely under 68...and get hard slamming bows with mega stopping power. But i like the flatbows too!
Scott
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radius, my concern was his draw length coupled with the length of the stave but I think you have more experience with yew than I do. :) Jawge
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maybe, i've only made a dozen or so. But i find it REALLY wants to bend. You can whale on these sticks and they just keep bending!
Maybe our rule of thumb (draw length x2 plus 8" for handle and fades) doesn't apply to yew? It's gotta stand out in order to deserve its reputation. My stiff-handled yew 57" bow deflexed considerably toward the archer. But even so, it pulls 52# @28" and the arrows are really fast!
Let's see what he can do!
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I like to make mine a semi-stacked style, which if you took the stacked and flatbow and blended it which ends up with a sliightly more rounded belly than a flatbow but doesnt concentrate the compression as much as a stacked bow. they take less set and last longer for me. I also seem to have less breakage with this style. anxious to see how this one turns out.
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Gluing walnut overlay tips at the moment thanks too radius, thanks for all the stuff my friend. From the advise I got today I will then narrow it some more here and there then will tackle the shape before I start bending her on the tree.
This is getting nerve racking but it's is so very awesome.
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can't wait to see it
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My first nock ever. Again this is all new to me, not that easy to do... yet. I probably should go a bit deeper but I don't have all that much to play with now.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020383.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020384.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020385.jpg)
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yeah, thin...when you get the bow bending, the string will show you where it wants to lay...then you can groove the sides
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I could flatten it and add another layer, thinking about it anyway.
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I seen this crack, (above pencil line), earlier on and hoped it would go away while shaping but it doesn't look like it, Out with the super glue and cross my fingers.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020386.jpg)
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sent you a pm
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Tiller stick, having difficulty with the left limb but that's enough for tonight.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020388.jpg)
pulled at 15"
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020387.jpg)
Radius you get my PM? Got back kinda late from Sooke.
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i got it yes, dark , it's ok. don't worry about it.
ok so you got the tree up! good!
now u can obviously see the outer limbs need to bend
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Well what went wrong? Still had it on the long string and what use to be a fairly straight stave seems to be taking quite a set. When does one go to short string btw?
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020391-1.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020392.jpg)
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you put it on the short string as soon as you can.
When you floor tiller it, and can displace the handle about 4" easily and have some even bend in the limbs, you shorten the string to give it about a 4" brace height.
THEN the real tillering starts.
As for the set, maybe you cranked it too hard too soon? Can you show pics of the thing from various sides?
The heat gun is your friend. With a piece like that, without a single knot, i would be experimenting like mad, and at the very least cook it into reflex. It's such a long bow: you could thin the handle, and make it a setback handle bow, which counteracts set and gives high early draw weight. I think.
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how long did this stave set before you started working with it? it could still be a little green, this would cause set. just a thought :)
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tree's been down 3 years
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Right limb needs to bend mid limb on. It's doing all of its bending right of the fade. There is no need to pull that so far with the long string. I just long string out to 10 in and NEVER pull it beyond target weight even with the long string. You may be adding set w/o realizing it. I humbly suggest you check out some of the buildalongs on my site. Jawge
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Where is that crack? Do superglue it. Jawge
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Yeah I might have cranked her too much, heck if I know what I'm doing yet and yes I will read some more.
I wonder if this piece had too much rot setting in at first?
So before I tiller it more, Should I heat gun it first? The crack is superglued and that crack is on the right limb or across from my file in the last picture.
Bow is 66" ntn and handle has been rasped down but will get rasp somemore.
Been searching for that heatgun holder but can't seem to find it. Do I make it so the gun is 4''away or is it 6"?
By reflex raduis, guess I would need to make a form and slowly apply heat and clamp it down as I go?
Thanks for the help guys, I got kind of discourage there for a sec but if there's a chance I still can pull it off...that would be awesome.
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4" is the general rule...but if ur heat gun sucks, get closer, if it's mega, go farther.
and yeah by reflex i mean heat it backwards over a curving form. careful not to heat where you glued though...that might be a problem
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Well got my book today, looks very interesting with full of knowledge. sad thing is I haven't done anything lately cause a friend passed away and helping out so everything has been at a stand still for now.
I will try re-flexing the bow with heat and will try to save it. I've learned a lot through here and killing it already and so I am not done with it yet.
I'll be back with more in a few days.
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Appears I ordered vol 4 which is good as it talks about heat treatment. I just ordered vol 1 like I thought I did. Oh well hear vol 1 and 4 are the ones to get anyway. :)
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Well it's broken, back to the drawing board.
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hey, let's see
we want to look at the pieces and "talk about what happened"
i d k bro...we might need some sinew
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before
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020393.jpg)
Broke roughly 8" from center after more tillering and heating, checking weight pulled roughly 24-26". Had it at about 40#.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020396.jpg)
Back
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020395.jpg)
Side
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020397.jpg)
Belly
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Ruckster/P1020398.jpg)
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looks awful, that sucks!
ok then: let's talk method:
did you heat treat and then tiller right away? Could've just been too dry there.
Challenging wood, yew. But you've got enough that you'll be telling us what to do before long. Keep at it.
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If you end up not getting the draw weight out of it you desire why not throw a hickory backing on it and maybe reflex it just tad bit to add some weight. Even a thin bamboo backing would help bring the weight up a bit.
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actually looking more closely at the pic, it looks like that spot was thinner than the wood to either side of it...a problem
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Radius I let it cool down completely in between scrapings, Had the limbs reflex a bit. Rudderbow a little late for backing on this one but I have the sister stave of this one, same shape and will have to chase rings because of rot and will back it.
Learning and didn't expect a perfect bow the first time around. Next one I'll do with sapwood once I pick out my piece.
I just had a look at it again radius, width was about the same but thickness was slightly less.
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After staring, turning, inspecting it with magnifying glass, talking to it and reading...I have concluded that heat was the culprit. I should have added moisture to it or let it sit outside as I believe I dried it too much.
I have started on a couple more but looks like I may have to chase rings on both as it seems it came from the same log. I should have marked them but anyway I am dealing with rot again in the sapwood. Well want to experiment some more to see if I am right about the first one, what the heck.
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I've had really bad luck with staves from standing dead, or staves from downed trees. I've found it's better to cut live trees, and take the time to season them slowly. I also cut all my trees in the winter now... sap is down. I now it's harder to remove the bark, but I prefer that to checking cracks and longer drying time. The wood is somehow not as strong from dead trees. Anytime I hear "rot in the sapwood," I shudder. JMO.
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These trees were cut down from my understanding but they were piled up outside for 3 years. This on I'm dealing with was a pretty knotty log that has the rot, my other log seems okay. I figure if I start with the hardest pieces I should get good at it. LOL.
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I've had really bad luck with staves from standing dead, or staves from downed trees. I've found it's better to cut live trees, and take the time to season them slowly. I also cut all my trees in the winter now... sap is down. I now it's harder to remove the bark, but I prefer that to checking cracks and longer drying time. The wood is somehow not as strong from dead trees. Anytime I hear "rot in the sapwood," I shudder. JMO.
i'm with ya, adb, at least for stave wood. i've taken standing dead, and it was crap. I actually pushed that tree over in about 30 seconds, just pulling back and forth on the stub of a broken branch! got rid of it. but i think that the heartwood could be good as compression wood, belly wood, if milled into laminations.
next spring i'm gonna start hunting yew on the mountainsides here, and see what i can find. Lucky me the wife is into it!