Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: loefflerchuck on October 29, 2009, 02:51:32 am
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If this posts this time I will write about the bow.
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Nicely done. Those shorties always get me riled up. Post some more 'natural' pictures, heh?
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Being a big fan of history and archery, I like to recreate the archery tackle of the indigenous people who once lived where I reside. Spending half my time in the bay area. The Sierra Miwok bow acquired by trade was the bow used by the Costanoan in this area. The bow was a popular trade item and in use throughout central California. The bows were made from California nutmeg and Incense cedar.
The first few Miwok bows I replicated were made from the Incense cedar trunk. Historical writings say the limbs were preferred. Eventually I figured out how to find the ideal limb for a bow. No twist with a upward curve. The top half of the limb with a natural reflex becomes the bow.
The limb that made this bow was far from ideal. It had a double propeller twist, but this stave seemed special. After working it down I noticed the opposite twist aligned the string perfectly center at the handle. I apply ed a thick backing of sinew in 2 stages. More than a third of the total thickness. The result is a amazing snappy bow.
The bow is 38.5" and pulls 46# at 25". Even over drawn this far, within a hour or 2 of being unstrung it returns to a reflexed shape. Like the original the knocks are of molded sinew extending past the wood to form a hook (so the string doesn't slip off). The string is 3 ply elk sinew with otter fir wrapping to deaden the twang.
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Far'z I can figure the greatest things posted are those that are primitive, but have some true challenge. I'd say you ran that one down. If it were mine I'd smile twice it at! ;D
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That looks really cool! WHAT A BEND!!!
BUT...pictures are so small...
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see if I can upsize the pictures
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That is a dandy of a short bow, nice work.
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Again: That is a fantastic little recurve!!!
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This is truly a primitive bow which is what Primitive Archer is all about. Great entry for October Self BOM fun. (any chance of upsizing the full draw pic?)
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I'm off to work in a few, When I get back I'll work on getting a better picture. I used photobucket, and it came out that size
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Beautiful shortbow man!!! nice curves and the full draw is absolutley amazing...made my day already... I have a hickory shortbow i recently made it still is a bit heavy in the draw weight mine is more a flat bow and was gonna think about turning it into a crossbow just for fun na...maybe not!! Again real nice bow and try to set ur phone or ur digital camera settings to higher pixels resolution itl tell u u look like u have it set for a compressed file or email...
Cheers!!!
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Great job...looks just like the few originals that I've seen. I never expected it to take that massive of a draw though!! Wow! Great job on those sinew/glue hook nocks. Definitely a unique type of bow tip.
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HEY LOE,first that is a great looking na bow...i have been told many of times that incense cedar wont make a bow..and holy cow you did it and a shorty to boot... so,is it all heart wood or is there some sap wood on it..if you have both what is the ratio of the two that you used...man,that is great...good work..john
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John. It has all the sapwood left on it. The back is just peeled of the bark and underbark. In a limb the sap layer is thin, but there is not much color difference and so is hard to distinguish.
I have to stress. The limbs are far superior to the trunk. The trunk is strait and will supply unlimited staves, but it is the limbs that make the bow. I have a few similar bows made of the trunk and they can not compete with the limb bows. The challenge is finding the right limb. It takes some tree climbing skills. I have a few more in the making. all the branches have a upward bend. the top half becomes the bow. I have some wonderful snaked staves with lots of natural reflex in the making.
I seasoned them by painting the ends and removing all the bark/underbark. It just peels off.
I'll have better pictures posted tomorrow
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bigger Picture
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Thats amazeing! Great bow and work! How did U made that nock, some more info pl.
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The nocks are bundles of sinew folded in half on the bow tip, and extending a inch or so past the wood. The sinew is then molded with the fingertips to shape. When the glue dries they become rock hard
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That bend really is impressive!!!
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Beautiful work...awesome :)
Del
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wow...now ya know why they made those hook nocks like that!! with conventional nocks the string would slide right off the end of the bow.
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holy cow! man that is really pushin the envelope. verry well done!
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Chuck,
Great bow that is awsome. Like you I am fascinated by this style of bow. I am working on my first attemp right now. I am using an elm stave and was wondering if this will be an ok wood type for this style bow. I have already started the bow so I hope it will work. I was just wondering if this elm will be flexible enough to bend like your cedar does?
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wow severe bend!!!! is the bow backed??
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i might have missed it: but how wide are the limbs and how long is the thing altogether?
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That's amazing ! Beautiful job.But that full draw pic makes me nervous :o :. Sinew is incredible,but the compression qualities of that cedar is unbelievable. God Bless
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Wow, I can't believe how much bend you are getting out of that piece of wood. Amazing!
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Ya I too am really impressed by your full draw shot..
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holy $#@! thats awesome
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hey chuck,just trying to pick your mind some more...so what are the measurements on the stick and how many courses of sinew is on it...if you can give any more info that would be wonderful...is there any books about these people...thanks john
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really nice, authentic, native bow, I'm amazed the wood can take that bend!!!
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To answer a few more questions. Rileyconcrete I sent you a personal message. There is a heavy backing of sinew. I started out with 3 thick courses, and after tillering produced a disappointing weight I added another 1.5 layers which raised the weight 14# and increased the reflex further. The sinew is at least 1/3 of the thickness.
The total Length knock to knock is 38.75". With the reflex, unstrung almost 37. This one is 1.5" wide above the handle tapering from there. A previous couple I made did not taper much as far as width and had fretting that was delt with as shown in Boyer's bible 3. Tapered down and had no repeats. The thickness above the handle is 3/4", and the cross section is a flattened oval.
As far as the compression strength of incense cedar. I have made 7 of these bows in the last couple years. I started off using the strait trunk, that worked okay. All the info I have read says the limbs were preferred, and I can see why. It has closer grain and cannot be compaired to the trunk as far as performance goes. The limbs are far superior. One more note. It was reported the Miwok made there bows of green wood. The first one I made was very green and after it was finished and backed with sinew it warped to the side. I used it to see how far it could be pulled before braking. I still shape the bows green, but wait a while to make sure the core is sound before I back it.
There is lots of information on line about these bows I don't have documented right now. Craig Bates wrote a study on the bows called "the reflexed sinew-backed bow of the Sierra Miwok. It has a good bit of info on the bows, but lacks any info about the arrows used. That can be found with a bit of diligent google searching. The Lowie Museum of Anthropology has 2 wonderful specimens I have had the opportunity to examine. I have learned alot about these bows in the last few years from research, construction and shooting. I may submit an article for the magazine after I learn a bit more.
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thank you so much...i am going to print out all the info for future projects..this whole thing about incense cedar really blows my mind...it just goes to show you that the na people of this land where truely master minds...john
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Wow,that is to cool,tiller looks great.Very nice job on that one. :)
Pappy
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What do U think, is this possible with yew or what kind of other wood than cedar? I ve a lot of low dense yew billet , bends nicely and smooth draw. Made a test kid bow from without any problem ~ 20# at 17. Think to copy this project from that because I like it very much!
(http://static.fotoalbum.hu/picturezoom/2009/11-27/fusizoli/IMG_4040_111711.jpg)
(http://static.fotoalbum.hu/picturezoom/2009/11-25/fusizoli/IMG_4039_205946.jpg)
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have you got any info on performance? range? speed?
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Fuzi. That is a cute little yew bow, will make a great gift to a youngster. I recently cut some yew and have about 10 staves I cant wait to work with. I have never worked with yew but I know that with sinew it will take quite a bend. That is why northern California tribes used the bent tab knock on there little yew bows, so the string would not slip off the knock when overdrawn. I have worked with juniper and it will take a bend with sinew. The piute made very short heavy reflexed bows of juniper with a thick backing of sinew.
Dragonman. I have shot these bows alot at the walking range on kings mountain near me but plan to do some flight tests on these. I tested my previous replicas where I used the trunk of the cedar and with a fairly heavy long oak foreshafted cane arrow they shot over 150 yards. These were of the inferior trunk, and even with the backing followed the string a bit after being unstrung. The last 4 I have completed are limb bows. Made from select limbs with lots of natural reflex upward to the top of the limbs. I am up to 5 to 6 layers of sinew on these and before the first bracing they have over a foot of reflex. Within a hour of shooting they return to a nice reflex. I will test the cast with a native style arrow and post the resaults. I think it will be a bit better than the 150 yard trunk bows
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These profiles look AWSOME !!!
I have a stave of ERC; would want to make a sinew-backed bow of exactly such a profile! How long should such a bow be for my 29" draw??
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ERC would work great. If you make a native style that bends throughout the length of the bow and have a perfect tiller and good sinew backing you can get away with a little under 50" for 29" draw. But why not make a safer and more durable bow and make it 55". Still slightly overdrawn but not stressed to the max.
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Thanks the info Chuck! Will split some for this ..... If have any more info it would be nice because havent got that book and not find more on net. May some more pics if U have. Made an experiment nock like that and yes it is rock hard and works! :)
I think from this low ring range local yew have to make it wider than a high dense one. May give it a try for boo just for fun.
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Found this .... http://books.google.hu/books?id=qSRLW5ziVFAC&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=miwok+bow&source=bl&ots=Gs6i59VWpv&sig=6b2tqtdNsgZids4MqGoDpECRU_U&hl=hu&ei=WxgxS-_bLZfWmQPfup3GBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=miwok%20bow&f=false (http://books.google.hu/books?id=qSRLW5ziVFAC&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=miwok+bow&source=bl&ots=Gs6i59VWpv&sig=6b2tqtdNsgZids4MqGoDpECRU_U&hl=hu&ei=WxgxS-_bLZfWmQPfup3GBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=miwok%20bow&f=false)
bit more info
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ERC would work great. If you make a native style that bends throughout the length of the bow and have a perfect tiller and good sinew backing you can get away with a little under 50" for 29" draw. But why not make a safer and more durable bow and make it 55". Still slightly overdrawn but not stressed to the max.
I have 64" to work with if I recall right, and I would want a stiff handle, so that should do I guess!
I'll come back for help when I get started...
Happy holydays...l
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Stiff handle for a Miwok bow?
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We will call your stiff handle a modified Miwok bow. Today we know that a bit of extra length and a stiff handle will make an easier bow to deal with(for us). I like to make them 100% authentic cuz I want to see how they performed, not cuz I want to make the best hunting weapon by todays standards. Show me some pics when you are done
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Those datas U post is from the core or the sinewed bow size? 3/4 at the handle with sinew? Schould U post some core datas, I ve carved out the first one from yew 36.4 long. Next will be longer up to 45, this one for experiment. Handle mid limb and tipp size would be nice. Thanks !
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Fusizoli
I think you are right with 3/4" with the sinew. I have one that is 38" n/n that has a bendy handle with sinew that pulls 68# @ 18" and is 7/16" but it does not have quiite as much sinew as Loefflerchucks.
Tell
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Yes thanks! I think he have flater core than yours and thats why he can pull it so far. It works like a "hornbow" just without horn. Thats what ammazed me.
Schould make one from the pics but, better this way. First ask the correct size make it and brake it lol.
Carve out the first core but have to make another because there are weak points ( hoped will fall out but not ) and this bow working on limit so weak points are not tolerated. Some work into the trash, may for the kids with some backing.....
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Fusizoli. The cross section of these bows are that of a flattened oval. ()- That is almost the exact cross section of the bow on it's side It is hard to tell from the pictures. I took some measurements for you. Just above the handle it is 1- 7/16 wide and 11/16 thick. The 5 to 6 layers of sinew make up 1/3 the thickness. Mid limb is 1-6/16 wide by 9/16 thick. I'll post some pics for you.
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The first photo is 3 Miwok bows at rest. The 2nd is a bow before sinewing. 3. cross section before sinew and 4 cross section of complete bow.
When I find the time I will do some detailed tests on a handfull of replicas to see just how well these native bows performed. Allot of things point to technology from Siberia and the orient reaching the west coast and spreading to the plains and southwest
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Aha thanks! So it much deeper as I tought or carved the first one. I ve made a californian flat one not like this :( Thats bend like yours from yew without sinew.
But this deep handle how could bend so much ?
This small pictures are suck >:D ::) but tahanks any kind of help ;) Some front wiew please.
Cheers Zoltán
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http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/databases/common/image_dup.cfm?catno=50%20%20%2F%206439&show_portfolio=yes (http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/databases/common/image_dup.cfm?catno=50%20%20%2F%206439&show_portfolio=yes)
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That is an outstanding bow! Well done! Jawge