Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Ian. on October 28, 2009, 08:17:54 pm
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Looking at making a heavy hickory bow 140Lb ish, first off will it make the weight and second if it will what dimensions would you suggest to start on.
Thanks
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Why hickory?
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Ian, I have seen some nice all hickory longbows in 60# made for serious clout shooting, but I wouldnt use hickory for heavy longbow.
I would cut that plank into 6 backings ;D Then contact closest hardwood flooring dealer and get few planks of Ipe.
Hickory is so much stronger in tension than in compression that it will tend to crush its own belly on longbow profile. Also it will come out as I suspect with very bad mass to stiffness ratio, when made as selfbow. It cannot be much improved by heat treating like soe other, more fat woods. The stiffnes and belly load could be improved by laminating hickory on hickory, but then again, once you start to glue, there are much better choices for belly wood.
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Thanks, Jaro... my thoughts exactly.
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Personally I like hickory and I'd use hickory for anything. I'd go 70", start out at about 1.5 wide in the center, narrow to about 5/8" at the tips. Not sure exactly how thick, maybe about 3/4" to start and go from there. Slightly rounded belly. JMO
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thanks for the feedback I do have belly woods but nothing that can take that weight sapele is the best ive got.
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You will NOT get a 140# selfbow from hickory at 70"!!!! Not if you're drawing it past 24" or so. What draw length do you hope to achieve? When I think warbow, tillering full compass to 32" comes to mind. This requires special wood, and hickory self bows do not come to mind. 70" would be too short for almost any wood. Hickory would make an excellent backing wood, in combination with osage, ipe, jatoba, yew, and a few others. It would need to be at least 78" NTN for that kind of draw weight.
Hickory is tough stuff, but it does not excel in compression. Making a 70" bow, 1.5" at center, would result in unbelievable amounts of set, if you could get the wood to hold up in the first place! Hickory excels (in a selfbow format) with wide, flat limbs.
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I mean no offense, but who will be shooting this bow? I believe there are only a limited handful of people in the world, who regularily shoot full draw bows in the 140# class. For that matter, there are also only a smaller handful of people making them.
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I mean no offense, but who will be shooting this bow? I believe there are only a limited handful of people in the world, who regularily shoot full draw bows in the 140# class. For that matter, there are also only a smaller handful of people making them.
I'll be shooting it, I have asked about heavy bow before the main thing that holds me back for pulling high draw weights is making bows heavy enough i don't know how the likes of bickerstaffe can make a heavy laminate I currently have a 130Lb bow that I bought, ill have a crack at a 1/2" backing of hickory on a sapele belly, but any suggestions who be greatly appreciated
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Jaroslav
Hickory is a better bow wood than White Ash and it seems to me that you have made some pretty heavy weight bows out of that. The only problem with Hickory is that it works better at a low MC.
For a 140# bow I would go with 1 1/2" wide and perhaps 74" long, that should be good for a 31" draw. You didn't specify if you wanted to make a traditional English warbow therefore I would suggest a shallow D section.
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I would dearly love to see a 74", 140# @ 31" hickory self warbow.
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Marc I did, but that was very special ash, and perhaps one in thousand ash planks does for bows that heavy as I made. It should be noted that those very also very shallow in profile.
What I suspect with hickory bow in this weight and construction is that it will be pretty much unbreakable, but also sluggish and shocky, with ammount of set, we dont usually consider normal.
But maybe not if you make it, since you tiler better than most people on archery boards anyway.
Ian, I havent tried the sapelle, but I have seen sapele bow of 70# and it looked like the belly was going to be inevitably crushed.
If you only have hickory, then cut a backing strip and cut thickness taper on belly and reglue together on some simple former to get like 1 1/2" of reflex in outer limbs. That might help you offset negatives I mentioned. If you cannot get Ipe, try at least bulletwood (massarundaba), even though it is not that good, it is still better than sapelle.
Having no yew (almost) me and lads around here have made some seriously heavy bows out of hornbeam - that is european hornbeam and I suspect that it is closest to hickory we have, though not so hard. Dogwood bows of 100# shoot pretty well, the only trouble is pin fretting should the pin cross the belly from side.
What I m trying to tell you that once you venture into the 140# your wood choices are going to be more and more limited.
Jaroslav
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Having no yew (almost) me and lads around here have made some seriously heavy bows out of hornbeam - that is european hornbeam and I suspect that it is closest to hickory we have, though not so hard.
Without backing?
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Without backing, because made of split staves with unbroken back ring.
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Ill have a go with hickory to make the weight results good or bad will be posted
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Small update - 'No' hickory will not make a heavy bow by its self, I did however get a piece of yew from a tree surgeon, together they have so far made a 125lb @ 29" the final draw will be 32" but my tillering string has worn out.
Dimensions are 34 by 40mm at the handle 16mm round at the tips and 6' 10" grove to grove. of that the hickory is 17mm thick.
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Pictures??
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This is at 29" it has dropped in weight so the final figure is 130lb at 32" but as its so long it will be piked.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi Ian,
Seems to be something wrong with your secon picture, only the top few lines have come through. Can you post it again
Craig.
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Don't see the second pic either...
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Nevertheless the shape on first picsture is quite fine, I would try to get outer limbs somehow more further in tiler.
Though - I would be hesitant to put hickory, particulary thick one on yew as all yew bows backed with hickory had crushed bellies to some degree.
It is however good backing.
Ian, did you tapered the backing on the tips?
Jaro
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Nevertheless the shape on first picsture is quite fine, I would try to get outer limbs somehow more further in tiler.
Though - I would be hesitant to put hickory, particulary thick one on yew as all yew bows backed with hickory had crushed bellies to some degree.
It is however good backing.
Ian, did you tapered the backing on the tips?
Jaro
Thanks
I am expecting some level of crysles on the yew. The hickory was taperd on the last 12" so to to about 10mm
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Ian, I make warbows from bamboo backed and Hickory backed Hickory as well as other materials. The heaviest from hickory was 140 to 150 pound class at 32" built for a friend of mine who competes in England quite often. . It was 76" long before the hoirn tips were applied and started at 1 3/8" wide in the center. It was a monster. My friend added the tips himself. We also made a hickory backed osage from argentine Osage using a single growth ring on the hickory backing for a 175 pound at 32" English WAR BOW. tHE THING WAS 80" IN LENGTH before the horn tips were added. It shot a record 1100 grain arrow 439 yards in England.
Also, we have made a few hickory backed Ipe warbows that were in the 130 pound class for some friends in a club over there and they really shot superbly. The biggest problem was that some of the guys were using arrows that were way too light. It was like dry firing a bow.
Hickory does take more string follow, but, it is definatly tough enough to make a heavy Englsih bow out of. Good luck. .
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It shot a record 1100 grain arrow 439 yards in England - who shot it and what event it was? Since the record with flight arrow holds Jeremy Spencer if I remember correctly with some 400+ yards and self yew bow. That result sounds more like scifi.
J.
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Yah, Jim... I'd be interested in knowing who shot this magical 1100 grain arrow 439 yards. If that's true, it should be a new record.
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Hi rudderbows
Thanks for the advise this bow ended up 140lb @ 32 very little set surprisingly, and shot very fast I was at a shoot with the finsbury archers and was able to strait shoot most of the roving target,
But the hickory almost failed, it has a vertical crack mid limb so this weekend I'm going to make another and repair this one,
On a side note with your heavy bows do you find 1/4 hickory cracks often in this way, how do you have the hickory on the back of your bows.
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Jaro, ADB, rarely do I post here when no one says something crass to me. It was one of my customers in England. Believe whatever you want.
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Ian, I use a considerable amount of hickory and found that not all hickory is created equal. For instance I can pick up a piece that has thick, dense growth rings and is seems to take the punishment better than the thinner rings. Also, I have felt some hickory wood that is more spongy and it seems to need to be thicker to achieve the same draw weights.The spongy stuff takes allot more string follow. I keep wondering if these trees had bad nutritian or bad growing conditions or something adverse. The spongy stuiff feels light weighted in hand. On the heavy bows I select thick growth rings and heavier weighted wood and have not had troubles with cracks or chrysals. I do see allot more string follow on the hickory bows than I do the bamboo or hickory backed ipe and osage. The Ipe really makes a good bow with a hickory backing. If I can ever help you please let me know.
Hi rudderbows
Thanks for the advise this bow ended up 140lb @ 32 very little set surprisingly, and shot very fast I was at a shoot with the finsbury archers and was able to strait shoot most of the roving target,
But the hickory almost failed, it has a vertical crack mid limb so this weekend I'm going to make another and repair this one,
On a side note with your heavy bows do you find 1/4 hickory cracks often in this way, how do you have the hickory on the back of your bows.
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In the light of improbability of the feat in question, you should have expected to be called upon backing it up. Your hesitancy to do so over non existent pretext does not add any credibility to your claim.
1100 grains is 71 grams , in other words weight of the EWS livery arrow. A minute look at Batsford 2009 shows that there is only 5 people actually shooting over 240 yards with this arrow weight - with best results being around 260.
Now you waltz in and expect us, who have the actuall experience of making and shooting these bows to believe that somebody nearly doubled that?
I asked you simple question, which you could have expected to be asked and you play "oh I m mr. civil and wont talk to you, because you are being crass" ?
My patience and civility does not extend to liars.
J.
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Hi Rudderbows
The people you are referring to as the ones who shot these massive distances are Magen Klomp from Fairbow and also James Farrar from Fairbow UK, however if they had told you these distances then they have mislead you. I know they arte good customers of yours and that they buy a whole load of Hickory and Osage from you but please take these outlandish distances as just pure fantasy. Here are the actuall results of both Magen and James:
QTR Pound Arrow 1750 grains
Klomp Magen 185 yds Stratton 144# @ 32" 166# @ 35" Italian self yew
Farrar James 205 yds with a Klomp 160# @ 32" Laminate - single ring hickory/Argentinian osage
EWBS Livery Arrow 965 grains
Klomp Magen 202yds Stratton 144# @ 32" 166# @ 35" Italian self yew
Farrar James 215yds Klomp 160# @ 32" Laminate - single ring hickory/Argentinian osage
BLBS STD Arrow 802 grains
Farrar James 198yds Klomp 160# @ 32" Laminate - single ring hickory/Argentinian osage
So as you can see the claim of 439yds with an 1100 grain arrow is vastly exaggerated.
Just thought you would like some clarification on this.
Cheers
Steve
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Jim,
What do you expect people to say, when you are reporting BS?
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Dear Jim,
all the records are to be found at the EWBS Website.
The record was shot at batsford 2009.
http://www.englishwarbowsociety.com/batsford2009_flight_results.html
James Farrar shot the bow 198 yards with a quarter pounder arrow.
the flight record is currently held by Allister at 438 yards. wooden laminate, 130 lbs.
Americans havent got a clue about heavy bows.
The shoot had more warbows on the shooting line and more yew selfbows present than has ever seen in modern times anywhere in the world.
have fun,
Magén.
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I havew to say that I come here to have a chat about boiws fomr time to time. And usually I run into this kind of stuff. Seems people dont use thier manners here much. Its not a good place to be I guess. You guys could use some lessons in manners and kindness. I hate coming here anymore because its full of people like you who simply dont have a clue about how to handle o0ther peoples feelings.
I reported it to Justin Snieder and he does not care about it.
I wonder whgy you guys feel it is ok to berate other people so easily, it really perplexes me to the nth degrea??? What is wrong with you rude and ignorant folks.
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And now the name calling starts, once again. ::) :'(
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Rudderbow- you are the one that just made fun of Americans! Seams to be a bunch of you on here...
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I'm wondering which one Rudderbows is: I mean is it Jim or is it Magen as there are two posts by Rudderbows and one of them is Magen saying something to Jim and the others seem to be Jim???????????????????????? ???
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I believe the flight record for an english longbow is somewhere around 438 yards but the arrow used was very light. Steve
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Rudderbow- you are the one that just made fun of Americans! Seams to be a bunch of you on here...
Jeff, that was an email form my friend in Holland. He is a jokester and we het along just fine. Please take no offense from it, he really is a jokester.
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I'm wondering which one Rudderbows is: I mean is it Jim or is it Magen as there are two posts by Rudderbows and one of them is Magen saying something to Jim and the others seem to be Jim???????????????????????? ???
Magen and I are partners. Sorry for the confusion.
I just had the most awesome realization.
I am a workaholic in my shop and do not get out much. I only visit here maybe twqice a year. I have no idea of the fueds that go on in Europe. Its amazing Just simple covnersation about war bows and wham I get a front row seat at the competitions. Interesting to say the least. I think I will head back out to the shop and leave European arguments alone. I am such a thick headed Irishman from time to time and cannot see past the insults to be objective sometimes.
Justin Snyder was so correct to have advised me to ignore it all. Thanks Justin for the wisdom. I am definatly listening. You guys in England and Europe are my friends and you have my respects. You should be a little kinder to each other over there. Sticks and strings are fun , but, not worth tearing each other down over. I am staying away from the bees nest. I dodnt realize the thoick competative nature of the warbow shooters, I should have known.
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Well put Rudder ;D
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;D ;D ;D Whenever you show up here, Jim (which is not very often), there is always controversy!!
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Some threads are VERY strange and irritating...! ??? ??? ???
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So will Hickory make a Warbow or what? ???
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Good question...! 8) 8) 8)
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Probably would, but wouldn't be my first choice. Makes a super backing wood, for something compression strong, like ipe or osage.
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What I found was 'yes' a good one that will make the weight but using a belly of something equally good will make a real stunner of a bow so if you have a 1/2" bit of good hickory you've got the making a heavy and fast bow.
Before this bow cracked it out shot just about anything Ive shot before it, easily 260 yards with a livery/standard, it will be repaired and used as my main bow.
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I'm really proud of all you war bow guys for holding your tongues. ;D It's so nice when ya'll play nice! 8) Keep up the good work! ;) Cheers
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There was a flight shooter by the name of Jeremiah Rutherford that passed away recently that made very heavy bows out of Hickory. He holds the unlimited primitive broadhead record
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Im going to glue up a Hickory Wych Elm stave and try for 160lb I think this combo may just do it.