Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Rhinegold on October 16, 2009, 03:51:51 pm
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What do you do to prevent your wood bow from taking on too much of a set?
My hickory self bow is kept straight with two spring clamps braced against a long 2x4.
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"My hickory self bow is kept straight with two spring clamps braced against a long 2x4."
This may make ya feel good, but I don't think it helps the bow. Set is a result of the stress' on the wood, during tiller and the life of the bow. Keeping a stave dry during tiller, and how well the bow was tillered will reduce set, but bending them backwards just risk breakage IMO.
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^Ditto. Set is a biproduct of use. Every time you draw, you damage the wood a little...some more than others, but each draw puts irreversible stress on the fibers. Bending the bow against its set does the same thing. The best way to store a bow is prone, no sterss.
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Keeping a stave dry during tiller, and how well the bow was tillered will reduce set, but bending them backwards just risk breakage IMO.
Well I'm only keeping the bow in the same STRAIGHT shape it had when it was made...so why would there be an increased risk of breakage?
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...each draw puts irreversible stress on the fibers.
Ok, but I've noticed the set is reversible.
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As I said, if that makes you feel better, go for it. Set is not reversable, string follow will go away to an extent but not set.
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Set is not reversable, string follow will go away to an extent but not set.
What do you make of this advice?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jky1vd7_Yyg
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I think the poor guy is confused, If I made a video would you believe me too.
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If I made a video would you believe me too.
It depends on whether I had actually experimented with whatever advice you had given.
However, saying I should do something because "it makes ya feel good" does not inspire confidence.
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"However, saying I should do something because "it makes ya feel good" does not inspire confidence."
And if comments like this make you feel better, go for it. ;D
I used to say WHATEVER, but I guess that's annoying. >:D
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Set is not reversable, string follow will go away to an extent but not set.
Just to clarify the difference between set and follow...I found this definition:
"Since I mentioned 'set', lemme take a detour here and explain the difference between 'set' and 'string follow'. First of all, all bows have set. "Set" is when the belly wood gets compressed, and the limb bends more toward the belly than it did before. Now let's say you take a bow with 5" of reflex, and after tillering it, it has 3" of reflex left. That means it has 2" of set because it has been deformed by 2".
But such a bow has no string follow. String follow is the amount of deflex in the bow. If you start off with a perfectly straight bow, and you end up with 2" of set, it will also have 2" of string follow. But if the bow starts off with 1" of reflex and takes a 2" set, it will have 1" of string follow. If you start off with 2" of reflex and take 2" of set, the bow will be perfectly straight with no string follow."
http://www.geocities.com/salampsio/oak7.htm
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I used to say WHATEVER, but I guess that's annoying. >:D
And equally meaningless!
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I had a hickory board bow that took about 3 inches of "set". I overdrew the bow too early in tillering and figured I would just (hehehe) fix it later. The fix consisted of heating each limb and bending the limb back straight. Voila!!!! The bow was fixed! Laser straight with just a little judicious use of heat.
Only until I shot a half dozen arrows through and the "set" was back, just as bad as ever. Oh well, it shoots just fine and easy to string.
My take-away lesson for the day? Never pull the bow past the weight or drawlength that is your stated goal.
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Your quote is equally meaningless. There is a definite difference between string follow and set, I take my definitions from The Traditional Bowyers Bible, course not all books and things you see on the internet are true.
You can perform this experiment yourself, string your bow leave it strung for a few minutes. Unstring the bow and measure the set. Let the bow relax for an hour or so, measure again, this value is string follow. Not deflex, and not set.
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It is dissingenuous to ask the question and then quibble about the answer.
There is no point in clamping a bow to to a former to store it especially if it is reversing the stress on the limbs.
Have you ever broken a piece of steel rod by repeatedly flexing it back and forth to create a stress fracture?
If you don't want an answer why ask the question?
Del
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OH Yeah! Welcome Rhinegold, I see you are new here.
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It is dissingenuous to ask the question and then quibble about the answer.
Not if the answer is disingenuous.
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Which answer don't ya like? Or did you just come here to argue?
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Which answer don't ya like?
I think I've already explained that adequately.
As for your suggestion to measure set after the bow has been 'relaxing' for an hour...I'm trying that and will let you know.
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like dano said "if it makes you feel good,WHATEVER"
damn boy,if thats all your going to do is argue when you ask for others opinions
why the heck ask,go stand in a mirror and argue with your self if ya know it all
new or not,thats not a reason to come off as aragont and all knowing
now do ya wanna know what i think
well i am going to keep this civil and not answer
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like dano said "if it makes you feel good,WHATEVER"
if thats all your going to do is argue
Yes I will slam silly answers like..."if it makes you feel good, whatever"
If you don't like it don't read my threads.
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i think you need to make that poping sound
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Pardon me, for my smart assed remark OK, but I gave you an honest answer, that you didn't like. Time for you to be honest huh?
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like dano said "if it makes you feel good,WHATEVER"
if thats all your going to do is argue
Yes I will slam silly answers like..."if it makes you feel good, whatever"
If you don't like it don't read my threads.
yup thats not a problem,and after you piss everyone off by trying to argue when ya ask for opinions
and no one ends up reading your posts and answereing your q's then you will be right where you want to be
all alone by yourself
i am finished,and please feel free to make that poping sound anytime now
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On a brighter note, It's a beautiful fall day ain't it. ;D
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On a brighter note, It's a beautiful fall day ain't it. ;D
not here , cold and rainy for that last several days.however it is friday two days to play and they say it should be nicer for the weekend to boot
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and no one ends up reading your posts and answereing your q's then you will be right where you want to be
all alone by yourself
That doesnt worry me...I've thanked most of the members who have provided real help.
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And let me thank you Rhinemold, for giving me a laugh today. ;D
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And let me thank you Rhinemold, for giving me a laugh today. ;D
Somehow I dont think youre laughing.
Oh and btw, your revelation about 'relaxing' the bow didnt pan out...after an hour I measured the set and its exactly the same as when unstrung.
I guess archery isnt a religion after all huh?
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Well I have a knack for sticking my nose where it doesn't belong :)
Welcome Rhinegold. Looks like you got off to a bad start here but I'm sure you are still welcome :) Most of the guys on here really know what they are doing so their input should be valued. You can learn a lot here for sure. Sounds like you might be new to bow building and we have all been there. Ask a lot of questions and you can learn real quickly with all the expert advise here.
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I am still laughing my friend, because I really don't give a crap what you think at this point, I don't spout revelations, as you do, I speak from experience. The thing about the internet is people like you can show up anonymously and start their crap and go away. You begin to show up this way, I guess we'll see ya. ;) Have a nice day
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And let me thank you Rhinemold, for giving me a laugh today. ;D
Somehow I dont think youre laughing.
Oh and btw, your revelation about 'relaxing' the bow didnt pan out...after an hour I measured the set and its exactly the same as when unstrung.
I guess archery isnt a religion after all huh?
Actually, it did pan out. You now know that the damage is perminant. Hysteresis is damaged wood. Set is the visable symptom of hysteresis. Pulling the wood straight can remove the visable symptom, but it doesn't undo the damage. I have had some bows with set. You can usually flex it backward and the bow will appear to straighten or even keep reflex. Now string it and pull and the set has come right back. You can try 18 million other options including heat treating and it wont undo the damage to the wood. Call it what you want, it is a feel good exercise. Justin
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Un, this correct here.^
I used think same when I first start, but find it not do anything.
The bending steel rod example is what came to mind after some time and I stopped doing it.
Do you see improvement when you do this? I think, if need to redo every time, it no improve.....
Dont worry about set, its not big deal anyways.... If you need to pack a bow in tube, maybe this is good way to get fit inside.
Its just better learn why bow take set, and build better for next.
Welcome! and good luck!
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Pulling the wood straight can remove the visable symptom, but it doesn't undo the damage. I have had some bows with set. You can usually flex it backward and the bow will appear to straighten or even keep reflex. Now string it and pull and the set has come right back. You can try 18 million other options including heat treating and it wont undo the damage to the wood.
Yes, it makes sense to me that compressed wood will not entirely return to its former state by tension. But if the heat treatment idea doesnt work...doesnt this mean that using heat to create reflex when the bow is made would also have no real effect?
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Dont worry about set, its not big deal anyways.... If you need to pack a bow in tube, maybe this is good way to get fit inside.
Its just better learn why bow take set, and build better for next.
You are Japanese...from Okinawa yes?
How do they store traditional Japanese bows.
"A good bamboo yumi seems almost alive. When new, it is strong and full of energy, and must be watched over carefully and gently corrected to keep it in proper shape. Special shaping blocks are available for this job (see Accessories). A yumi must also be protected from extremes of cold, heat, moisture, and dryness."
http://www.kyudo.com/kyudo-e5.html
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don't give a crap what you think at this point...
And I have little reason to complain!
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if you heat bend or steam bend to reflex wood this is done before limbs are stressed from normal use . the reflexing is not to undo damage but to shorten the working portion of the limb. this is normally done for increased poundage and speed, not for fixing a problem with set , reflexing after set has occured will most likely increase stress and cause more set. having said that i am a newbie and could have my facts wrong if so please step in and by all means let me know !
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Ol' Rhinemold ain't gonna give in, he's just makin it up as he goes.
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I know the kind of experience we have here on PA. IMO, literally the very best wood bowyers in the world. Yes, I said WORLD!
That being said...No, I don't keep my bow in a brace :)
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Every time you draw, you damage the wood a little...some more than others, but each draw puts irreversible stress on the fibers.
Every time you over draw, maybe, but I don't believe you damage your bow every time you draw.
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well said dano (all of your posts) and Saw filler...new guy's a know it all (till his bow breaks)
Ky
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What do you do to prevent your wood bow from taking on too much of a set?
My 2 cents worth, "Never overstress the wood" its about that simple Rhinegold :)
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Pulling the wood straight can remove the visable symptom, but it doesn't undo the damage. I have had some bows with set. You can usually flex it backward and the bow will appear to straighten or even keep reflex. Now string it and pull and the set has come right back. You can try 18 million other options including heat treating and it wont undo the damage to the wood.
Yes, it makes sense to me that compressed wood will not entirely return to its former state by tension. But if the heat treatment idea doesnt work...doesnt this mean that using heat to create reflex when the bow is made would also have no real effect?
My post seems to be missing so I'll re write it.
Try heating some suitable wood, you will find it changes quite dramatically, almost like plastic (to use another analogy, as my steel rod one was so well received :P), when cooled it returns to near it's original state, and indeed can be bent and re bent several times without detrement.
My previous post did have some serious content, (as well as trying to make you reach for the dictionary ;))
Del
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Rhinegold, try to keep an open mind. There a lot of people on here who know tons about making wooden bows and Dano is one of them. Sometimes, the best thing to do is say thank you when a question is answered. No one says you have to take the advice that was offered. No, I do not keep my bows in a brace. It is usually not a good idea to bend a selfbow backwards even a little bit. I do try to keep moisture laden air away from my hickory bows. In the summer, I keep hickory bows in AC which removes moisture from the humid air. It is very dry here in the winter so I do nothing special at that time. I looked at the Yumi site. I think that bow brace may keep the recurves in line is what the site said. Regarding removing set once it has registered in a bow- since set is caused by the collapse of belly wood removing it is almost impossible in areas that are bending. However, in most bows the handle does not bend nor do the last 6 inches of the tips. Putting a set back in the handle or reflexing the tips a bit may mitigate some of the set. If the string follow is less than 2 inches in a straight stave I'm happy. Have fun. Enjoy your bow and the time spent here. :) Jawge
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I don`t post here very much but I do read allot of what is said and I would say most advise I have seen is spot on.
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Your Yumi is stored in cloth bag, sometime we wrap in some finer cloth before putting into the bag.
"strong and full of energy"
This just mean, it is still elastic and returns to its reflexed shape after unstring. Tired yumi means it has lost its spring, taking a set.
"Gently correcting"
This has to do with side bend, or if area becomes stiff. We put a block under the string at the nocks to correct twist, or, there is special form looks like upside down bench to bend limb side ways.
Because its a laminated bow, it should not be bent to counter set, or tired shape. This puts counter shear stress on glue line and so maybe not very safe.
After a yumi becomes tired, it is usually not shot anymore, or is repaired.
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Hey, Rhinegold.
Welcome. But, you gotta relax a bit, I think. Why ask advice, if you already know the answer? No, I don't keep any of my bows in any sort of brace. String follow and set are NOT the same thing. You've been given excellent definitions and advice... take it. And please, don't bend any of your bows backwards.
Also, depending on weather conditions, string follow can change. I have a self yew warbow, and in the summer months, it follows the string about 1.5". However, when winter comes, and the furnace kicks in, dropping the RH, the bow (all by itself) follows the string about 3"-4". So, I don't shoot it in the winter, but I don't put it in a brace and bend it backwards either. During the winter, I just leave it be. This bow has about an inch of set, but the string follow will change, just by changes in RH.
Try not to be a smartass... nobody appreciates it. If you're willing, you can learn a great deal here. Good luck with your bow making. ;)
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I never realized the extent to which compression effects belly wood until I recently made a boo boo on a bow I was working on.
Tillering along, I thought I could sweat the bow down to the weight I was shooting. However, I didn't take notice that the bow was MUCH heavier than I normally shoot, even broken in. In addition, I hadn't temepered it yet. Yes, I was making alot of mistakes with this one ;D.
When unstrung after a few hours, it had about 2 1/2" of string follow. Blech! I reflexed it on a form and took the heat gun to it... only to have the belly crack horizontally across the limbs! It turns out the wood had compressed permanently. The heat, which shrinks the wood, simply exposed this visually.
My final thoughts? I've seen heat treating to alot to prevent excessive set. However, like bending the bow backwards or trying to rebend the bow, all it did was tear the already compressed belly open. Bascially doing nothing good. This bow is going to have to be thinned and dropped in weight, and then the inner, less damaged wood tempered. How well will this work? I doubt it will work as well as a clean, new, undamaged piece. But it should at least work.
When I first started I did bend my bows backwards. It never worked. After I learned this was a bad idea, my father suggested making a brace to store the bows. It seems a natural, immediate response to fixing a wooden bow. But like alot of "common sense" reactions, it isn't really effective!
As for viable sources, Youtube is as as unreliable as it gets. I've seen numerous videos on there that simply shouldn't be available to beginners. Everything from going from tree to fully drawn bow in an hour to cutting through the back to get rid of knots. My advice would be to get The Traditional Bowyer's Bibles Vol. 1-4
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I just watched the vid.. ROTF....LMAO..... ;D ;D
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What David said ^ :D :D :D ::)
Alan
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I don't post often, but - Kegan's advice about the traditional bowyers bibles vol. 1-4 is right on. :)
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In response to the video on you tube, Isn't that video right befoire the video of a kid shooting an apple off of another kid's head????
It's all good though, because the kid with the apple on his head is wearing a plastic bucket over his head for protection!!!
I think I'de rather get my experience from the fine bowyers on this site than learn from you tube!!~
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im with shadow woalker and the rest,get advise from people when it comes to making bows
but then again when he watches you tube,he always wins his own arguments
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I hate to step into this discussion but it actually has me curious. Does one store the bow horizontal with the belly or the back up? Horizontal on edge, or what? I am not really concerned with the question of the bow clamp, whatever that is, just want to know the proper way to hang/display/store bows. Thanks.
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I hang my bows on a peg board made with cut offs from cedar arrows. The string on the top limb goes over the peg(unbraced).
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for mine i have some shelf brackets ( L brackets ) on the wall
i place the bows on that belly side up,they wont lay belly side down
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Some of mine are standing in the corner (on carpet), some are in tubes, some are stored on a shelf. I don't get real worried about storage so long as they aren't exposed to excessive heat, cold or things of that nature.
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Most of my bows are stored in my cellar stuck in the rafter but some are hung horizontally on nails. The "active" bows are stored in the house in heat or AC. They are resting comfortably on a coffee table in the dining room. When we have guests, I move them. LOL. Don't do as I do. The second best way to store them is horizontally o pegs belly up or down. The best way to store a bow is in someone's hands who'll use'em. :) Jawge
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Hey, Rhinegold.
Welcome. But, you gotta relax a bit, I think. Why ask advice, if you already know the answer? No, I don't keep any of my bows in any sort of brace. String follow and set are NOT the same thing. You've been given excellent definitions and advice... take it. And please, don't bend any of your bows backwards.
Try not to be a smartass...nobody appreciates it.
Hey Adb, I thank you for the welcome and your technical advice, but I think you may be a bit TOO relaxed. I say this because you obviously haven't read any of my posts with any care or comprehension.
My opening post is posed as a question, not an answer...nor are any of my posts answers.
Do I think set and string follow are the same thing? No, I posted an outside reference pointing out the difference...did you notice that?
Yes, I posted a Youtube video of a guy who makes bows for a living. Youtube is not EVIL...its a medium just like the internet itself, where you can find the entire bell curve of good and bad advice.
Nowhere did I advocate his advice, nor am I following his advice.
What I am doing is clamping my bow straight, not bending it backwards like you see in the video. I dont own any of his bows, nor do I know if there're any good.
Did I advise others to do the same as I'm doing? Nope.
Do I sound like a smartass?
Yes I do Adb...thats how people sound when they are deliberately misquoted.
Check out my other threads.
I can be very nice...when there are no trolls about.
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Welcome to PA Rhinegold.
I'm sorry but there are no benefits to what you are doing but if it makes you feel good go for it.
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Welcome to PA Rhinegold.
I'm sorry but there are no benefits to what you are doing but if it makes you feel good go for it.
;D
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well, i have lurked around PA for several years now, and have made several selfbows that are good shooters. i still consider myself a "greenhorn".
when i first got on, It took me about an hour of browsing the forum to realize who the most experienced bowyers were: PatB, Marc St. Louis, Dano, George Tsoulukas (sorry about the spelling), etc, etc. Although they themselves may disagree from time to time on certain subjects, they are among the best out there when it comes to the down to earth practical aspects of bow building. I take their advice without second thought.
If your convinced that set is reversible than why don't you do your own experimenting: build a simple board bow that tapers from the belly and the back with a handle that is a mirror image of itself with equal parts of the handle in the belly and back, this way you can shoot the bow one way for several hundred shots, then flip the bow over so the belly is now the back and vice versa. if set is reversable as you think it is, then the bow will straighten back out or go the other direction a bit, but shoot just the same. keep us abreast of this as you try it...and wear safety goggles.
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I can be very nice...when there are no trolls about.
If one is looking for trolls, one will ALWAYS find one. The trick is being nice regardless of trolls or the lack thereof.
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Everybody, no matter who you are or how much you know, needs to remember that anything said here needs to be taken with a grain of salt. This is electronic communication. We are not face to face and tone of voice, facial experessions, etc. cannot be taken into account. Also, we are not all from the same background, geographic area, native language, or culture necessarily so what one persons takes as a simple comment or question can, by another person be taken as an attack.
I do not see where any of Rhinegold comments should have come off as arrogant, presumptuous, or otherwise. If he came here to begin with, it was because he valued the advice, criticism, and help that he knew he would find. That is why the title of his thread was a QUESTION. He was simply wanting to share his experiences, thoughts, and get feedback. He got feedback, and when he replied in constructive dialogue to the constructive criticism, which are all good things, comments began to be taken out of context. This was from all sides. Plain and simple.
He is a new guy to the forum and I didn't see where he was looking for an argument. I think some of us need to remember that this is a life-long journey no matter who you are or what your name is. And assume once in a while that comments directed to us may have just as easily been made in good spirit as bad. If we were in person, and shook hands when we met somebody new before we started discussing our bows, I doubt that 1/10 of these arguments would happen.
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I agree coyote pup. Sometimes at work, I forget that emotions and tones are not portrayed the same in emails and piss people off when I'm joking about something and they do not realize....
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Everybody, no matter who you are or how much you know, needs to remember that anything said here needs to be taken with a grain of salt. This is electronic communication. We are not face to face and tone of voice, facial experessions, etc. cannot be taken into account. Also, we are not all from the same background, geographic area, native language, or culture necessarily so what one persons takes as a simple comment or question can, by another person be taken as an attack.
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Well said!
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Well I always keep my bows in brace form ! I always hang two side by side, they look better that way ;D
Dennis
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What a welcome huh Rhinegold? O:) I am new here too but will welcome you to PA as well. I didnt mean to highjack your thread with my question but it seemed a good way to maybe get you the answer you need and I needed that answer too so....... it hopefully worked out for both of us, I know it helped me although I was doing basically what the collective told me I should be doing.
Always remember what was said above about the typed word sometimes changing how things are actually meant. HOW you say things is just as important as WHAT you say. I sent David Knight a pm the other day that, after sending it I felt a little wierd about, I mean, he really doesn't know me and my personality so he may have misconstrued what I said,so, David, if you read this please know that I was just being humurous, in my wierd little way. :-[
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This thread is marked with a 'very hot topic' tag.
Well I guess it is...
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"WHAT DO YOU DO TO PREVENT SET " ?
first of all you will get a degree of set all the time, set and follow are 2 different things, .......you can have a perfecly strait bow ( no follow ) that as at the same time has 4" of set
as to keep set to a minimum,
.....make sure the wood is dry, in the tillering process after 20" increse draw length by 1/2" at a time with lots of shots, and belly temper once as soon as limbs are even and not stressed yet, second at about 20" and one last time one inch before full draw. I got decent results lately this way.
Bending the bow backwards or even strait is not gonna help, might make the bow look good while there ;) .....but it's just an illusion ;) ...that video is pretty funny :D
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Rhinegold-
Hmmm, I just read most of this thread. I think I get the jist of it. Bear with me here a minute and I'll try to answer.
If I were going to just answer the question in the title of your thread, I would say "No, because it is not beneficial to the wood, and in fact, over time will be detrimental." Why? because of the stresses put on the wood, first one way, then the other. My belief is that it would continue to weaken the wood over time. The bow will lose draw weight, etc., etc. We've all been over that. What you have here in this forum, if you choose to listen to the right advice, are the voices of experience. We've all broken bows. We've all built bows that came in under weight, or poorly tillered. What we all have done along the way is learn to build better bows.
I have seen the video and other videos done by the aforementioned bowyer on the "tube" long before this thread was posted. Some of the things I've seen that guy do make me cringe, but I've never bashed him. He simply has much to learn yet, as do I. I wonder who gave him the idea that exercising his bow limb backwards would help? In my opinion, I believe it was more for the bow holder's benefit, than the bow's.
Dean Torges, who I regard as highest on my short list of grand master wood bowyers, will tell you straight up if you are doing something wrong. He'll also let you know when you've done something right. He has also learned to stay away from archery forums on the interweb. :D That man, along with Gary Davis and others, past and present, have a vast wealth of knowledge stored in their heads, regarding bowyering, and working with wood. Thankfully, they have shared some knowledge with us (along with other bowyers) and sparked a revival of a once forgotten craft. I believe ol' Dean would also tell you to go right ahead and clamp your bows limbs to a brace every night, if you think it will work, just so you will learn from your own experience. He encourages the learning process. He has just given many of us a head start.
The key word in my reply is "experience". That said, I wish you many great experiences in life, and I'm looking forward to another glass of lemonade with Dano one day.
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Oh my gosh! I forgot to mention that heat tempering (and things like it) are usually done early in the bow making process, before the bow has been drawn many times. It's more preventative than repair. I'm sure people have tried it as a repair, but if that bow wants to break, it will anyway. If it wants to hold together, it will anyway. If it the damage is done, it will surely be reflected in the performance of the bow. (until it breaks :'()
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It's more preventative than repair. I'm sure people have tried it as a repair
See my post. I have the cracks to prove it doesn't fix anything after teh damage is done ;D
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That funny guy in the video, isn't he the same one that makes hornbows with the horn on the back??
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Frank, you remember that wierd fantasy bow too? Justin used to own bowstick, and I think I recall the name Rhinegold from that site. Bunch of teens in love with Lord of the Rings stuff. I think he was in Iraq, and posted a bow he claimed he snuck into Baghdad at night with night vision goggles to harvest the wood for.
The video was funny.
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Frank, you remember that wierd fantasy bow too? ...
The one with the 6inch tips??
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Yes, that was the one! It was for the Dark Lord of Death guy who used it for fantasy conventions, something like that. Photos showed the Dark Lord in his Molly Hatchet leather armor with mist all swirling around him. It was nutty stuff.
Orc Bow here does amazing things based on Tolkien, but Justin was just making a fast buck making "authorized LOTR" stuff.
Dane