Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: II BYRDS on August 03, 2009, 04:14:43 am
-
OK call me stupid. i am just starting out with shooting traditional/primitive. My mine set is primitive. i have my first bow Osage bamboo backed self bow? i have been looking for some shaft material for arrow shafts. my first set of arrows are port orferd crown dipped red and crested with the colors of the four directions with White cock feather and red hen feathers. so question is what makes the bow i have now traditional versus primitive. and can i us ash shafts and haft my own napped arrow heads to them what would it be primitive or not. i been trying to find some dog wood shoots in my area but cant seem to find any.
-
First everyone has there own thought on Primitive,get out the popcorn. ;) ;D The bow you are shooting altho by some my be classed as primitive it is not a self bow .It is a backed bow .A self bow is self backed. I don't think just using homemade arrow is going to change primitive from Trad.I gave up worrying about that stuff a long time ago.I shoot what I like and build as much of it as I can.
Both are terms given by modern man anyway.Just shoot,Have fun and come up with your own Idea
of what is primitive. :)
Pappy
-
Well put Pappy. Nothing more needs to be said. However I do have my popcorn ready cause I smell a debate looming on the horizon. Ronnie
-
;D ;D ;D
Pappy
-
II, you can shoot with me anytime. :) Jawge
-
Traditional seems to include the glass lam bows while for primitive we try to keep our materials on the natural side of things...
IE: sinew, rawhide, horn backed...bamboo backed bows we're found in the past as well.
"Primitive" has various levels from person to person... don't worry about it, have fun with what you got and work your way back as time goes on... ;)
-
I had to say something , but a 100% primitive bow is doesnot contain any modern man made materials,,a backed bow of bamboo or what ever could be primitive if you had used hide glue, urac etc, not primitive,I have no problem with any type of bow,,but a truley primitive bow set should contain nothing that was not available a few hundred years ago ,,, JMO
-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/pop.gif)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/pop.gif)
All I'll say is that in order to shoot in the primitive class at most shoots, they allow selfbows or natural material laminates, i.e. bamboo/hickory backed bows; and natural material arrows-wood or cane shafts. That's pretty much it. If there's no fiberglass, carbon, or alumiminum involved, it's good to go. That's pretty much our cut-off point on this site, too. As to what is truly primitive equipment, I would say self/sinew backed bows with natural material string that was made from natural materials such as rawhide, sinew, gut, etc, not factory-spooled linen. True primitive arrows wouldn't have any store-bought stuff on them. Or I guess to be truly primitive, it would be have to be made by some member of an indigenous tribal society back in the woods somewhere.
But the main thing is, who really cares what anybody calls it? Go forth, shoot what you want to, and have fun.
-
This seems to be an ongoing debate, partly because both words have quite literally a number of different meanings. Even if there are dictionary definitions about the words, what they mean in archery differs from person to person.This is just as true in the UK as it seems to be in the US.
I was talking to someone yesterday who seemed to think that a primitive bow had to be crude, that if it was well made, if it worked well, if there was intelligent "sophisticated" thinking behind the design it couldn't be primitive. This would rule out a huge number of ancient bows.
I think we would struggle to come up with an agreement on what either primitive or traditional really are, let alone compare them!
Mark in England
-
Here is my 2 cents. I agree with most of you. Get out there and shoot something you made. If it has some modern influence So What. If you made it be proud of it, call it what you want and have fun. My feeling on it is we are all following a hybrid primitive way of recreating primitive equipment.
Makeit, break it and repeat.
-
I shoot both, I like primitive self bows and backed bows, but i also like to shoot and hunt with my glass bows
-
OOOOHHH Ian said the "G" word. :o
-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/pop.gif)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/pop.gif)
:D :D :D
-
That might be the funniest emoticon I've ever seen.
I think we have a tendency to act a little smug because we make prehistoric bows and arrows. It's easy to ignore the modern steel tools we used in the process.
Shoot with what you have. I got into all of this shooting carbon arrows out of really short green wood bows. I used blue packing twine for bowstrings.
-
Wait one cotton picking minute.
YOU MEAN YOU CAN MAKE BOWS OUT OF FIBERGLASS!!!
I have to get out more.
Next thing you'll be telling me is that they make arrows out of metal and that new hockey stick carbon stuff.
SHEeeeeeeesh.
-
iam with pappy on this one. my 2 cents. who gives a rats a$@ as long as it aint got no wheels. nothing bad on wheel shooters but its not a stick and a string . i think as long as you shoot a bow, ie glass or natural. heck yea keep it up.
-
I just publicly displayed an emotion for the first time in three years, but it's okay cause I was laughing at the dead horse. Love it. Didn't know we had that one.
I'll buy what folks have said thus far. Primative is great, but I'm sure most of use use some modern influence, even if it isn't reflected in the finished product. We use a steel knife, scraper, saw, etc to shape the bow. We also may sit in a chair in a climate controlled workshop (kitchen, in my case). The idea is to have taken an active role in creating something that is neat and functional and that you can take pride in. I still have some arras with plastic nocks on them, and I shoot them from a sinew backed bow, and that is fine with me for the time being. I'm working on some rivercane arrows, but untill I get a lot better at breaking rocks, they are still going to have manufactured broadheads on them because I am not going to quit hunting untill I "get it" all. If I did that, I'd never get to the woods.
I grew up shooting a bow with wheels, then on a whim one day went to a fiberglass longbow from a major manufacturer, got bit by "the bug" and got two much older glass recurves, then got the sinew backed bow and that is what I prefer now. I'm working on making my own bow, and am slowly but steadily sneaking up on being able to make all of my own equipment. Someday, years down the road perhaps, I am going to wander naked into the woods with a stone knife and return fully clothed and well fed with a well-worn bow. But, I'm not going to quit shooting and hunting in the meantime to get to that point in a hurry.
-
When I want to shoot primitive i don't shower or brush my teeth.....makes it all that much more AUTHENTIC.
In 10,000 years the space creatures who control Earth will refer to all of us sitting here tonight as primitive........heck, they may be popping outer space popcorn and laughing at us right now.
Where's my tin foil hat??
piper
-
WOW! this is like an episode of the Twilight Zone. I think this came up once before. ::) ???
-
i dont and wont make a "f" bow,
i dont make trad gear or primitive gear.
i make self bows or board bows or wood/boo lam bows.and hand made arrows.
nothing primitive about them,just the noises that i make while making the bows and arrows
a little grunting,a little groaning and sometimes a whole lot of cussing >:D
-
How did I know. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
-
I think the reason this topic always draws so much attention can be nailed down to one word...passion. Folks here are passionate about archery, and regardless of the direction that passion flows, I think that's a good thing! ;)
-
wow what did i start here ;D. as far as what we use, to do what is that we do do ;D. if our ansesters had a steel draw knife they would have used it. if they had a steel file instead of some sand and stone they would have used it. if they had some two part epoxy they would have used it. i just did not want to cross the line on what i have been doing. i will be back!
-
steve ya gotta show me where you come up with this stuff. too damn funny
-
Actually I do agree with yazoo on this. I shoot selfbows and self arrows. I make my bows and my shafts or I harvest shoot shafts. But my bow has a leather wedgie for a shelf, my handle coverings are put on with waterproof glue, my string is B 50, and my bow was made with metal tools and a belt sander. It is not a primitive bow. I don't worry about it much either. LOL. A truly primitive bow should have no shelf, all natural materials including the string and be made with stone tools. I think the type of tool used directly impacts the design of the bow. Try scraping out a flat bellied bow with stone. :) Jawge
-
jawge you just have to use better rock . not that stuff you pulled off your sidewalk. ;D
-
This is always a cool topic, and is kind of philosophical vs. practical discussion.
My take is no one can really “go primitive” no matter even if you go off into the woods naked and depend on your skills to survive, or make a bow using only stone tools. All of us are trapped in our modern world, and are products of our education, society, mass media, the foods we eat, the preservatives in the food, the way we get to our job and around, the infrastructure like roads and electricity and GPS satellites, metals, petrochemicals, pharmaceuticals, agriculture, our system of law and order, and our religions. Even if you play primitive and try to replicate the conditions of our ancestors of 10,000 years ago, we are only playing, and seeing mere shadows of what was.
I was at my club in Deerfield felling an elm tree a few weeks ago, and it was around dusk when I was heading out with a 4” log perched over my shoulder. It was that weird time of day when the beautiful forest suddenly started becoming less than inviting, and I think most of you know what I am talking about. The light started failing, the ground fog started rising among the birch and elm tress, the sounds of the forest changed, and it felt a bit like I was in an ancient fairy tale, and not the happy kind that ends “they all lived happily ever after”. Times like that tell me that as much as I love the forest, I am not and will never truly be part of that kind of nature, but only a visitor. We are part of the world of automobiles, space exploration, TV and video, electricity, air conditioning, tools, fast food, books, and so on.
Struggling back to the car with this green trunk, I also thought about how easy we have it today, and how hard just cutting down a small tree and getting it home is. Imagine a world without metal, for instance. And think about how that metal is mined and then manufactured into common stuff like bolts and nails, how it is transported to factories, how the energy is produced to run the factories and the supply chain, and how it gets packaged and in stores and finally to us. And think about how you work and earn the money to get these things. Our ancestors would be totally amazed, and most of us don’t really understand how all of it works, too. It is nearly infinitely complex, and getting more so all the time.
It kind of reminds me of a discussion I had a few years ago with a historian from the U. of Akron about a WWII book project I am working on. Some WWII B-26 pilots and crew were looking into having some B-26 Marauders replicated and built. Only 1 B-26 exists in flying condition in the entire world, and the plan was to get a few build and licensed. It was possible to do this, but it would have cost them about $3 million a copy, but that money and those replica bombers would never do what the old guys really wanted. They had an idea that they could go back in time and relive some aspects of their WWII flying experience, but that is just not possible. While each single component of the planes could be replicated, the safety of flying through blue US skies instead of clouds of dark German flak, the radio net not broadcasting a tactical net out of England but modern air traffic, the age of the guys, all the rest would only allow them to get a feel for what they once did, but not really replicate that experience. That is impossible, just as someone participating in a WWII or Civil War battle reenactment can never really put themselves in a battle like Gettysburg or the Bulge or D Day. The Germans aren’t shooting back, blanks are in the muskets and the MP40s, and so on. Your odds of dying or getting your legs blow off are pretty much 0%. The fear will never be there, or the society that you would have come out of to have actually participated.
And that is the same as a stone age bow. You can touch on what an ancestor may have experienced, but only just. It is a direct way of touching a bow maker or archer of 10,000 years ago, but only that, and only barely. Aside from the artifact, which may be identical to what you will build using the same tools and of the same wood, the man behind the bow that you are and that a Paleo Indian was stares across an impossible to cross gulf of time and space and experience.
Dane
-
Just use what you like and dont let what somebody else likes make you think less of what you like. I make some bows that pretty much resemble modern longbows in every way possible except the materials used. I think it's safe to say most on here prefer a selfbow made without lamination but they still come on and tell me good job when I post a laminated bow. I think the most important thing is not to put down what somebody else likes. This site is for primitive bows but there are a lot of grey areas in that definition. I agree with Pappy and others. Just make or use what you like and dont worry about what its called.
-
Good words Dane. Love the WWII analogy. :)
-
Dane, that's true. Modern man can never truly build a primitive bow but that doesn't mean someone who wants to can't get as close as they can to the primitive experience. LOL, jamie, you are right. But even with steel tools the belly of the bow will be ever so slightly rounded especially if you want your tool to work at maximum efficiency. Jawge
-
dang dane i think i got to many cold ones in me to finish that one. do you write books ha ha. na well put.
-
Dane, just like never being able to truly duplicate a prehistoric bow, try as hard as you guy's want, you will not be able to duplicate the living and hunting conditions either. We are just big, little kids, playing. ;)
-
Yeah, I do Woodstick. I write for a living. Sorry if I was long-winded :). No, I'm not.
True, George, that is why many of us do this. If I can get just a tiny glimpse of the experience of a man from 10,000 years ago, I'm satisfied I'm keeping something ancient alive and viable.
We are, Mullet. My wife has figured that one out a long time ago. She approves, and as I point out as necessary, it is much better to spend hours in the shop instead of the local bar (that has its attactions, too, though :) ).
Dane
-
LOL, Dane, I told my wife the same. And being married to a Driller for 32 years that was on the road a lot, she agrees.
-
We call it primitive archery because of Primitive Archer Magazine and this website. What we do is make wood bows, etc...but with our modern brains and modern tools. Just knowing that I can take a piece of wood and make a successful working bow is enough for me. I have made one glass bow(unsuccessfully) but prefer not to work with the glass. I worked with enough FG while I was a boat mechanic to last me a lifetime. I now like knowing that I can, and do make wood bows, arrows with cane and hardwood shoots, hand stitch the leather gear I use and feel comfortable that when I hunt with this stuff I am confident that I can be as effective at taking the game I persue in an ethical and humane way. Also, I just like watching an arrow fly on it's graceful arch to the target! 8)
What I am trying to achieve with "primitive archery" is to see how simple I can get and still be effective. Just knowing that I can make what I need to hunt with and with as little capital expenditure as possible allows me to feel a since of accomplishment that outshines almost all others I have achieved in my lifetime. The next best thing is the feeling I get when I can help someone else be successful in their pursuit of simple archery.
I use steel tools, modern glues and string, modern technology and the experiences of others, both modern and primitive, to get me to where I want to be. Just knowing that there are folks that are amazed at what we do as routine is enough for me. It boosts my ego and makes me feel special. After all, ain't that what we are all trying to achieve? I do all of this for me but I also like knowing that others can learn from what I have learned from others. That's called "passing it on!"...and that is what has kept our sport, addiction or whatever you want to call it, going on since the beginning of time.
Call it what you want. I call it fun!!! ;) It is all traditional because it comes from tradition!
-
Here here Pat B! Thanks for expressing with words which I cannot!
-
Nice, Pat.
And now, I am going to say it before anyone else does...if ONLY you had been aboard the SS Minnow, those poor castways would have gotten home quicker. :) They never did learn to fix the hole in the boat, not even the Professor.
Dane
-
Very well said everyone and yes Pat you are very special. Ron
-
Just what I was going to say Pat, but not as long winded!! >:D ;D
-
Dano, He just got older,, and more,,philosophic,,, naaa, your right, just older and more long winded. ;D
-
We still love ya Pat ::)
-
Me too! Dano ::)
...and yes I am getting older but have always been long winded. ;D...and caffeine is another wonderful addiction! :o ;D
Actually I don't think I'm the oldest geezer in this conversation. ;)..or the most long winded. :D
-
Perhaps I can bring another perspective to this debate. I came into all of this ~6-7 years ago while in jr. high. I was really interested in archery after having heard many stories about archery, and in fact my namesake is a famous indian archer. So I asked my parents to buy me a bow so that I could learn. I guess I threw a bit of a fit about it because I was denied the opportunity due to my behavior. So being a child of the internet age, the first thing I did was run to google and look up how to build a bow. Somehow, that seemed like the logical thing to do. And lo and behold, I ran into Jawge's site. Of course, being so young all I ended up doing was ruining some boards. Tried again after a few years and managed to produce a single shooter that broke after about a month. Now I'm back, produced one shooting bow (though the tiller is off), and I'm on work on several more.
The point is that rather than being drawn by any sort of post-modernism, I came into this because of the low cost involved in making your own bows! Doesn't make for a very romantic story, but I imagine that I'm not the only one who's here for that reason. I stayed however because I can make these myself. Sure, if I had access to glass, I would probably try and make a bow with that as well, I have no prejudice against it. But the idea is that I can do it myself; I'm the sort of person who likes to do things myself. I've been building computers since about the same time that I tried to make my first bows for example, and I write my own software when possible. The self-reliance inherent in constructing a bow is what keeps bringing me back to "traditional archery" or whatever the buzz word has been, is now, or will be. But in the end, its just that, a word. It only has the meaning that we choose to give it.
-
I don't care for any of the terminology: primitive, traditional, etc.
I make bows. I shoot them.
-
I have yet to make a stone tool self bow with a sinue string. But to me the primitive archery thing is like climbing mountains, always steeper near the summit. With that said, the traditions of archery are the fun part and archery has never ceased to be fun.