Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: billy on April 24, 2009, 02:47:41 am
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For anyone who doubts the effectiveness of stone points, I've got some pics below that should help flush those suspicions right down the toilet like yesterday's turd.
I found these pics of a rabbit I killed a few months ago. Shot it at 15 yards with an osage self bow, rivercane arrow, and small triangular flint point. When I butchered the rabbit I also performed an autopsy and discovered that the stone point had cleanly severed the aorta in half. Now I've heard some people say that stone points only shove arteries or other similar structures out of the way because the edges aren't razor sharp. Well, these pics are proof that simply isn't true. The aorta on a rabbit is quite thin, and I would imagine that if anything would be shoved out of the way by a stone point it would be a rabbit aorta. What's ironic is that the stone point actually needed to be resharpened, as it wasn't as sharp as I like. Even still, it was more than enough to kill the rabbit.
You'll notice that I am pointing to the severed aorta with a bamboo skewer. The other pics are of me and the rabbit, and the point I got him with. Now get out there and start shooting some stone!!
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i believe ya! ill never doubt stone. ;D
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great informative pics brother.... good kill and honorable harvest.. wish we could hunt big game with stone here :'( but the game and fish told me it is not the stone age.. guess fifteen thousand years of stone tipped death wasn't enough proof for them.. Hawk
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NY allows for any sharp material on an arrow as long as it is 7/8 inches wide or more. Stone, bone, antler, metal, even wood if it is sharp enough, can be used as arrow heads. Yet another reason I <Heart> NY.
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Nice Post-Mortum investigation Dr. Billy. Also nice shot.
mrkinsey- I guess that is one reason to love NY. Now at least I have one ;). I was running quite low lately.
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Helps convince me to use a stone point for turkey next week. :-\
Also have been shooting steel and stone points into a broadhead target and the stone point seems to be penetrating as well as the steel!! ;D
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I love the thought of taking a big game animal with stone...just seems fitting that with a selfbow it should be fitted with a cane arrow and a stone point. However, I will say that using a rabbit as proof positive that a stone point is effective for all game is a little off. Doesn't take much to kill ol' Peter Cottontail..and/or his brethren hares, jackrabbits, etc. Several folks have killed hogs, deer...practically most big game with stone points, so don't get me wrong. Reckon you could take down a larger animal and post those results sometime?
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billys killed a deer and turkey with stone and other guys on here have killed big game too.
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I think the rabbit is a good subject for a stone point lethality test. That rabbit doesn't weigh 2# and look at the penetration and organ damage. Think about an animal that weight 100# and the resistance against the arrow that would allow it to penetrate better.
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Well they may work for you Billy but my experience has been different and one rabbit isn't going to remove any of my doubts about trying it again. We all know that stone points can kill if the circumstances are right, no ones arguing that, but lets not kid our selves and say there as lethal as a razor sharp steel head because that's just plain not true. ::) I tend to believe what I've seen with my own two eye's over what some one tries to tell me on the Internet. If you think you not majorly handicapping yourself by shooting stone points your kidding yourself. Now I'm all up for a challenge (If I wasn't, I wouldn't be hunting with a self bow) don't get me wrong.....but I hate seeing wounded and unrecovered animals. I'm not saying I'll never try hunting with a stone point again, but if I do it will only be under the exact perfect circumstances, as in very close range, shooting from the ground, broadside, preferably with snow on the ground for tracking... I've hit them to many times out of tree stand with no pass through and had no blood trail to follow vs. the same exact shot with a steel head, no problem, plenty of blood to follow.
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I am with dax and Ryano, dax knows my own personal experience, and me and Ryano have discussed this as well. YES stone will kill, and you can pretty much get 100% recovery rate on squirrels and rabbits, but deer are a different story. I know that billy has killed a deer with stone point....but.., i have shot enough to know it doesnt always have a story book ending. deer i have shot with stone point and a 75pound selfbow at 8 - 15 yards have gotten away and if i was shooting steel i am sure the shot would have been fatal.
i will tell you right now, it is based on a lot of shooting skill, and even more luck. if you hit a rib going in it will almost certainly not exit the other side....the entry wound must miss rib to get maximum penetration, and a stone point just doesnt have the strength and sharpness as steel, and in a lot of cases will harmlessly push organs aside and not be fatal or...may be fatal in a few days.
if you miss ribs then you will most likely kill the deer, but if you hit rib, good luck on that blood trail. of course there are some chances when hitting a rib could benefit, like deflecting into the heart or jamming broken bone into an organ, but you simply cannot rely on that to happen. so as Ryano said, you are really handicapping yourself using stone, which is ok as long as you understand ahead of time that you might not get the animal even on a great shot.
I come from the otherside of the fence, originally. i told people without a doubt that stone was sharper than steel and will kill just as easily, until i got first hand experience. and i dont mean just one deer either, Ii have lost a few that i made good shots on. and yes stone i have knocked flakes from have been sharper than steel, but that was a thin flake. you can shave with that thin flake, but when you chip all the other flakes off, its no longer shave-able. Despite thinking its a bunch of little razor blades, i can scrape it along my arm and not slice myself open, but if i try that with one of my trade points i would need stitches
I admire Billy's tenacity and love of hunting with stone, and i wish him the very best in using it, but i honestly dont think he has enough experience in shooting big game to see the loss it causes, i kill squirrels all the time with nothing more than a 40 cal empty shell casing, so killing one with a bird point really isnt accomplishing much..in all honestly. (that wasnt directed to be insulting, hitting a squirrel is tough to do, i am not saying its easy, but killing it once its hit with an arrow is not too hard). And really, I like Billy for what i know about him, i think he has lots of knowledge and skill and i certainly wouldnt bad mouth him for his choices or accomplishments. But i am afraid that he will have future bad experiences, with continuing to shoot stone points at deer especially from a selfbow in the 40# range. i shoot 75-80# at deer and have never got out both sides of a deer using stone, and that was with very well made heads, and perfectly straight shooting arrows. but have always got complete penetration using steel - Ryan
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I appreciate everyone's input on this subject. Of course I understand everyone's perspective, but I am only relating what I have seen from my own personal experience.
No, I don't have much experience in the way of shooting big game animals with stone points. It took me 7 years to get my first deer with all primitive equipment. That being said, I have shot 5 deer with stone points and only recovered one. But before people assume it was the stone points to blame, let me tell you what happened:
My first shot at a deer was 4 years ago. It was quite dark and I was about to leave when a doe appeared in front of me at 19 yards. I drew back and fired, but unfortunately the shot was too low. The stone point hit the deer in the brisket, she hunched her back and immediately bolted. Never found a single drop of blood, but I'm pretty sure that deer healed up within a few days.
Second deer I shot was with the same arrow but different point this past fall At 20 yards, my 52 pound osage self bow punched that arrow almost completely thru the deer, only the fletch stayed inside. She ran off, but I found the forward part of the arrow completely covered in blood. After examining it more closely, the arrow was found to have some stomach contents on it. Turns out my shot was just a bit too far back, hitting one lung and the top of the stomach. Never found that deer.
Third shot was a few days later. I made a good shot on a doe, but unfortunately the doe was looking at me, and I was afraid she was gonna run, so I rushed the shot and didn't hit full draw. Only got one lung, but never found that deer.
Fourth shot was on a big mature doe, but I made sure to hit full draw this time. The shot was a bit too far back, it hit the rear of the right lung but angled upward, severing the major artery that runs along the spine. She fled 50 yards and died. That deer was recovered.
Several days later I shot another doe at about 12 yards. Same bow, cane arrow, with a point made from a beer bottle bottom. I was shooting at a slightly upward angle which caused me to shoot high. Hit her in the backstrap and she ran off. Never found that deer, but she most likely survived.
The turkey I killed with my primitive bow only ran 50 feet after being hit with a stone point. My brother witnessed the kill, so he was inspired to try with his compound bow. He shot 2 turkeys with his compound bow, carbon arrows, and muzzy 3-blade broadheads. Complete pass thru on both birds. Both turkeys ran 90 yards into the woods. One turkey was found the next day, half eaten by coyotes. Other turkey was never found.
Of all the shots I have taken at deer, only one was what I would consider a perfect shot...however I didn't hit full draw so penetration was poor. The shot in which I recovered the deer was also less than ideal, but it just happened to cut something good and so that deer was recovered.
The only shot that I hit exactly where I wanted to was with the turkey. And that shot proved amazingly lethal.
I don't blame the stone points for the deer I lost. It was operator error: poor shot placement and not hitting full draw on one shot. I tend to get really worked up when a deer walks in front of me, and unfortunately I forget everything I've been practicing. I know I can make accurate shots, but the buck fever is what messed me up. That is where I feel I need to improve the most.
Anyone else with comments on stone points, good or bad, let's hear it! Thanks again for everyone's input, and no offense has been taken on my part.
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Interesting opinions. Thanks for the pics, I really appreciate the details. I will use flintknapped points for the upcoming season for whitetails. I have plenty of confidence that if I do my part, my chances will be greater for harvest but never guaranteed as with any weapon/projectile. Every situation is different and highly unpredictable, especially on the side of prey behavior. I can respect others' accounts of their experiences for and against and feel that it is a personal choice that will vary from one to another. Good luck to all next season.
Tracy
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Interesting. So you agree with me that stone points are a major handicap? Your shooting needs to be flawless...I think you need to center up on both lungs broadside or your relying on bull headed luck. I think steel points have a major advantage because they cut more tissue than a stone point does and arrows kill by mass hemorrhage, thus if your shot isn't perfect you have a much better chance of recovering your animal. I hunt with about a 50 pound bow and 550 grain arrows and have only got a complete pass through shot one time even with steel points. I have shot several deer with obsidian points and with out a exit hole there was no blood to follow. The same exact shot with a sharp steel head yeilded a very impressive short blood trail.
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It is not true that steel is sharper than stone. The Facts are just the opposite. Obsidian is used in most delicate heart and eye surgery because the edge of the blade is cleaner and not ragged. Just Google Obsidian and surgery.
It sounds like some questionable shots might have been taken. Low light, wrong angle, maybe not the best opportunity? Nobody forces anybody to take THAT shot. And the truth is, if you hit the heart, lung, both lungs, or liver, it is going to die.
I also shoot a heavier bow than 50# and have seen a stone point destroy a rib bone.
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For twenty thousand years the stone worked just fine.. I have taken lots of animals with stone points and can only say that shot placement is the key to a harvest.. most guys don't practice with their stone points enough to be confident with their equipment.. but stone points are deadly if shot into the kill zone.. in my opinion. The biggest problem with hunters trying stone is they use too big of a point and the point doesn't penetrate deep enough... Just my opinion ;D but with the exception of a few glancing off shots on turkey wings the stone has proven extremely deadly even on a variety of game species.. Hawk
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I see where you are coming from eddie, and i agree with you. obsidian is sharper than steel, that is true, but that is a one moleculat edge piece that is used, surgical scalpels are not knapped. in other words no one is taking a ragged obsidian arrow points and cutting open a heart with it, its just used in a different manor. as you know being a good knapper, when you make an arrow head, even if its very very thin, the cutting surface has a lot more surface area that a steel cutting surface, and the more surface area the the mor drag and the less efficient the cut is. just like we stated how if i take a flake of obsidian it would slice deep into my arm with little effort, but a knapped obs point may cut a bit but it wont slice as deep and clean and easily like a flake will.
i think we all agree that if you hit the lungs or heart or arteries, the animal will die, no question about it, but a lot of times the stone pushed those organs out of the way instead of doing the maximum damage that a fine razors edge will. a field point to the heart will kil a deer, but if you liver shoot a deer with a field point there is a great chance you will lose it but if you liver shoot with a broadhead, the hemmorage is too great and you most likely will find it within 100 yards.
so i think what is being stated is, steel is more efficient and more forgiving. its less likely to break and will penetrate more without any question and will have a greater chance of recovering on a not so perfect shot.
and yes i have shot dead deer with stone to get examples as well as live deer, and yes a stone point will destroy a rib bone, but if you hit a rib bone going in, you lose a lot of energy with a stone point that you wouldnt lose with a steel point. that has been proven over and over, me and ryano both have had enough experience in shooting stone to know that getting out both sides of deer is tough to do with stone points, but easy to do with steel.
so its not in question does stone work, we all know it does, but what is being discussed more than anything is are you at a handicap with shooting stone.
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Hawk i agree withyou, small points are a lot better when it comes to stone, and not to sound rude like, and i never have had a probelm with you, so please dont feel like i am attacking you. but isnt it illegal to hunt big game where you live with stone points? and i am not questioning your legality, but more so questioning if you have lots of experience in shooting deer\elk\bear, or large hogs with stone points? that is more of what is at question here i think. also fiberglass bows do have potentially more power than selfbows pound for pound, and i have noticed in lots of pictures of folks who shoot stone with success actually shoot them off of fiberglass bows. anyone else every pick up on that? and no that wasnt a dig on glass bows, i was just making an observation.
i am afraid of irritatiing people with all that i write and i dont want to make any enemies, i honestly do think i have lots of experience in this matter and i have a grasp on what it takes to use stone successfully and its somting i am passionate about. not super successful...but passionate just the same. i WANT stone to work just as well as steel b\c its what i want to hunt with...but fact is its just really not as good. also as mike said, a turkeys wing bone is a tough thinkg to shoot through, and i know for a fact that a wing is like armor especially for a stone point. i already proved that one too. turkeys are best shot in the back or drumsticks and head\neck with stone points.. so again you are kinda handicapping yourself with stone.
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Mullet, are you saying that these fellows who have actual experience shooting animals with stone are just not capable of making good, ethical shots? That's a pretty big assumption to make. Do you have some examples you can show of their shot angles so we can feel better about digesting your assumptions? Perhaps you have some of your own pics to provide that exhibit your prowess at producing surgically sharp obsidian broadheads and the damage that they are capable of producing....I'd like to see some of this stuff. You haven't misspelled Georgia "Alabama" again have you???
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Below are pictures of the lungs from the deer I killed this past October. The first photo is taken looking down on both lungs as though you were standing directly over the deer's back. You'll notice the hole in the rear lobe of the right lung, but it was the cutting of the major artery (the bruise just to the left of the hole) that I think killed the deer so quickly.
The next picture is the underside of the lung, showing the long wound where the stone point angled upward and cut through the lung. Note that the wound was toward the rear of the lung, but it didn't push it aside or even appear to move it at all, at least from what I could tell when I examined it. If a stone point were to push the lungs aside, I would think the rear of the lung is where that would be most susceptible of happening.
I'm not trying to discredit anyone's opinion, just sharing what I have seen and experienced.
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Hey Dax, I don't know you or what you might be assuming about me or what you think I was getting at. But I do know, and have met both Ryan's personnably. I also know that both are excellent bowyers and bowhunters, like I said, never met you.
What I was getting at is basicly what Mike was saying, some people don't hunt with stone all the time. I have found, like RyanO that the game I lost was due to not being able to follow a blood trail good enough without a passthrough shot. That's why I started shooting bigger stone points and a heavier bow. I shoot mainly off the ground, mostly at hogs. It is not hard to get a clean pass through shot on a deer. Ask Chris Cade (mechlesher) or Marc St Louis. Marc wrote an article in PA on a head shot with a stone point. It hit around the forehead and traveled down into the neck. Just the tip was chipped off. Penetration is not a problem. I still think that being familiar, and confident with all your hunting equipment is important.
I'll be in Tenn this weekend at the Classic, Dax, love to meet you. Also, buddy go to hunting pictures of last year and I believe there is one of a dead turkey with a coral point.
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I know many people who have killed big game with stone points without losing animals. I also have seen many deer with Muzzy broadheads and bullets in them that survived or were lost. I think a good shot with a good stone point kills just as dead as the same shot with a steel point. There have been innumerable animals killed cleanly with stone, and there have been innumerable animals wounded and lost with steel points and bullets. There have also been studies done that show stone points often penetrating better than steel. I have seen photos of deer ribs cut into and shattered to hell with stone points. I'll qualify this by saying I have never shot a deer with a stone point, but I sure know plenty of people who have with great results. I also know people who have shot deer with stone points with not-so-good results. The biggest critters I've killed personally with stone points were a couple of groundhogs. They died instantly and dropped in their tracks. I can't tell you how many groundhogs that I've shot with guns over the years that have crawled back into their holes and were lost. A stone point is not a stone point is not a stone point, any more than a dull steel point is the same as a sharp one. A dull, thick point is a dull, thick point no matter what it's made of, and probably isn't going to make a clean kill whether it's stone, steel, or titanium. I see no reason why a stone point won't kill as well as a steel one if the shot is good and the point is sharp like it should be. But, I'll also say that It's a lot easier to sharpen a steel point hunting sharp than a stone one. I'll also say that a .300 mag will kill a deer quicker than any of our bows with more tolerance for bad shots, but I kinda like flinging arrows. :)
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I have been hunting with stone points for 3 years now, but unfortunately I haven't connected yet. I will keep trying until I do. Won't fill the freezer but I am proving to myself it is possible. I know many folks that have achieved a clean kill with stone points but like with any ammunition, it depends on where you place the shot. I have not yet loosed a stone tipped arrow at an animal but my day is coming. ;)
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I've shot 7 deer with stone,recoverd 5 of them,The 2 that I didn't recover was due to poor shot placement. I possibly would have had the same outcome with steel. Of the 5 recovered only 1 had a poor blood trail. All the others were as good as it gets! 2 fell in sight. Pass throughs no doubt are key here.Same with steel. I will tell you that 2 of the blood trails from stone were heavier than any I'd ever had.
Now maybe I just got lucky,but maybe not? ;D I shoot steel also and yes it does appear to be sharper to touch,( as long as one knows how to get steel hair popping sharp) And I'm sure that most on here can do that very thing,but as a flintknapper I will tell you that an errant flake will not stop bleeding until you apply pressure. I had a well known knapper tell me that stone will not only cut arteries,and veins, but it will also cut capillaries cleanly,thus causeing more hemorage.I believe this to be very true. The edge of the sharpest steel is not that sharp. Alot depends on how well the head is made,mounted,and shot to be sure of proper arrow flight, then sharpened again.
True that stone on rib can cause fracture and loss of energy, but what about steel? If the edge runs along a rib on entrance doesn't it dull ? Pushing by vitals? Losing energy also?
And why would I want to take a shot with steel that I wouldn't take with stone? Aren't we all suppose to wait until the right oppurtunity presents itself? When that happens, I don't think it matters what head you are shooting,only that it is as sharp as you can make it, and that you have the confidence to put it were you want. I am a firm believer that stone is just as effective as steel.
Sorry to carry on so much. This is a good topic to discuss.
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Twisted limbs....we can hunt with stone points for turkeys, predators and small game here.. fortunately I have hunted all over the west and have had lots of luck with stone besides here at home.. i have taken elk,mule deer and whitetail deer, coyote, fox badger, bobcat and turkey... ducks geese and pheasant with stone I have also seen bear and moose and lion taken with stone... so I guess I am sort of sure of their ability to kill quickly and efficiently .... by the way brother,I value my brothers of the bows opinions and am not easily offended.. ;D hawk a/ho
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Mullet, looks like you sway well with which way the wind blows and that's o.k. Good to be flexible. Good luck hunting and being a stand up guy who backs up what he says.
Hey, Billy, that's some impressive stuff there...looks like the stone did its job on that one. Here's a suggestion for everybody...for all of those who are having good success with stone and those who are not, would it be possible for you guys to send an example of the head you're using to each other and maybe this would help come up with a better understanding? Maybe somebody's doing something different that makes penetration better. Just a thought.
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I am really enjoying seeing everyones responses, i do believe those that have kiled with stone, although i stand by my theory that steel is statistically better. but for the sake of further knowledge...--
for those that have killed with stone (big game only please) can you show a picture of the stone point you used or one just like it
and the size dimensions of it.
along with whether it was a selfbow or lam bow,
what poundage bow,
and if you can remember, did it hit a rib
i think these are the important factors that we can control, shot placement of course is crucial, but its somthing that changes from time to time and person to person, so its not a constant. the questions above can be a constant. thanks guys, i hope we can find a pattern that might solve some questions. i personally think that points under the legal size limit are what will yield the best results
(haha looks like dax had about the same idea i did while i was writing)
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Great pics again! You don't happen to have a pic of the stone head do you? Healthy debate ;)
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Here's a pic of the point I killed my deer with. It didn't hit a rib on entry, but slipped between them. The point is only about 1/2 to 5/8 of an inch wide at the most. One thing I've noticed is that smaller, narrower points seem more likely to slip between the ribs when compared to a wider point. A wider point is MUCH more likely to hit ribs unless the point is exactly parallel with the ribs at the moment of impact. The bird point test I conducted also showed me that narrow points missed ribs with a much greater probability than I had ever thought possible. Although the bird point test showed they were effective, I'm still not sure if a wider point would produce a better blood trail or faster death thru hemmorage. I missed a shot at a deer this past fall with a bird point tipped arrow, so I still have yet to try them out on a live deer to determine if they are worthy of hunting with or not. The jury is still out.... but I'll pass on my discoveries as soon as I find out their performance.
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This is the point from the first deer I shot with stone. Raw Texas material,side notch,1" wide. (This is IMO the best design for hunting heads).It busted a rib on entrance,and the point was just through the skin on the off side. I found the tip that was broken later while eating a piece of meat. 6 yd shot,53# selfbow.ocean spray arrow,can't remember the weight.40 yd recovery.Good blood trail.
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Number 2 was a spine shot. You know the results.The point suffered greatly.Never found the rest of it.(Looked hard for it too!) Heat treated burltington,1" wide. side notch. Hickory shaft, I think these were in the 700 grain range. 53 # selfbow. 18 yd shot.
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Number 3 was with a point that a freind made for me. Porcelinite I think? I hated the design and the edge worried me,but it worked.....Just not very well. 54 # witchdoctor recurve, 22 yd shot. Hickory shaft,again 700 grain.Penetration was minimal. 150 recovery, very poor blood trail.(I heard her fall). Can't remember the specs on the point,as I gave it back to him. ;D
Forgot to add that I can't remember if this point encountered bone or not. The point looked untouched after I pulled it from the deer.
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Number 4 was with another raw texas point. 53 # selfbow,hickory shaft again, upper loin area passing through the strenum and out between the front legs. the arrow remained in the deer. 100 yd recovery.Massive blood trail,but the point was lost from the arrow along the trail. here is a before pic. It is the black point 2nd from left. It was thin and very sharp. Not sure about the width.
Number 5 was with the point on the far right.jeff city chert.same arrow group,same weight bow.another pass through and the point was lost along the trail. I just hate to loose points after shooting through a deer.I'm sure they must look unscathed? But dragging along through brush grabs the base and yanks the sinew and pitch loose I rekon?
As for encountering bone?I can't remember on this one either. I was to danged happy to notice I guess? :)
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Cool looking pictures, Tim.
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Tim, those are pretty much identical to the design I use for hunting points.
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last springs tom, picture agate point.. hit the tom right above the beard...point broke the sternum and came out the back of the bird.. he ran a short distance and expired.. point was intact and i used it again on a bunch of bunnies before it finally died... Hawk
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I also think that you would be handicaping your self by hunting big game with stone points. While anyone knows that they work it is just hard to think that they would work as well. I hunt mostly elk so I want maximum penetration and design my trade points to achieve it, my experience with stone is that they are fragile and break easily, I also know that damaged broadbeads severly limit penetration. Elk hide is tough and so are the bones, even ribs. I also know they are almost impossible to track with a poor blood trail. For me it is hard enough to get a good shot let alone a picture perfect one. For me the fish and game dept have made the decision for me, so at least that part is easy. If someone wants the additional challenge I am all for it but would never feel like the stone would perform like a good steel broadhead. The native americans gave up the stone points quickly when trade points became available. Kenneth
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Kenneth im with you on that subject and im not saying i agree or disagree with any of the infromaton stated...im just reading the post, but why did the natives give up stone for steel if it was the best material, was it because steel was easier to form into points or was it because it is truly better for hunting the large game? ???
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Hunt trap, I'd have to go with the easier part. We humans are kinda lazy? faster,quicker,easier? Culture demands it.
They left their steel trade points when rifles became available. ;)
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nice pics shown so far
i once believed that the only reason stone wasnt used today was b\c it is easier to manufacture steel points...which is true. but after shooting both myself, i have had lots more luck with steel then stone, by far just like they gave up bows for guns. its just more reliable.
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also they gave up bows for guns to better than survival for food and against enemy warriors and the whiteman and someone should ask that jay red hawk, who killed a buffalo with stone, what kinda point he used to kill that big beast with and what the death and damage was like...
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i agree that the steel are easier to make , and they sure last longer than stone for shooting over and over.. i mostly use only steel nowdays, but in my youth stone was much cheaper and easier to come by :o ;D so I used it.... i have found that the smaller trade points are deadly on deer, but three to one is a must for elk....Hawk
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I have limited experience with killing deer with stone, having only taken three, but I have taken 76 to date with traditional gear, ie. longbow and steel heads, so I think that my experience is viable enough to place my opinion. Billy made some heads for me to hunt with last fall and I was lucky enough to take three deer with them with my selfbow, I limited my shots to fifteen yards or less and you will have a hard time convincing me they do not work as well as the natives that used them for thousands of years. I think from reading thru this topic that alot of people have had bad results either because improper arrow and bow tuning, or shot placement, which the two together create undesirable issues. I am a raging lunatic about accuracy and the tuning of both my arrows and bows, Just ask Billy I think I drove him nuts trying to explain my way of both shooting and tuning. I very rarely comment on this forum but do lurk here alot to see what everyone is up to, opinions are up to the individual, but I figured I would place mine as well and it won't be chagend anytime soon, stone heads work when in the RIGHT hands! And to prove my point the next elk hunt I go on Billy is knapping me some heads for that hunt, if when I get them and they shoot fine and I have confidence in the setup, I have no reservations about using them to take elk.
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OK, so tell me why I shot both of these arrows into whitetail doe's last year slightly quartering away shot 15 yards or less angling forward into the vitals got what appeared to be great penetration and had absolutely no blood trail to follow? The points are obsidian. They were thin and sharp, shot placement was good.....arrows weighed 550 grains and flew like darts....There's no doubt in my mind that I killed both of these deer but I was unable to recover either of them. Looked for two days both times, even took the dog out with me. No blood, none. I made almost the exact same shot later in the year on a pope and young buck with the same bow and a wooden arrow with a steel point. He traveled less than a hundred yards and was recovered and left a followable blood trail even in the rain. I just don't get it. None of you were there so don't tell me it was poor shot placement, I saw where the arrow hit both times. OH, and the heads were about 7/8" wide right at our states minimum width requirement.
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Ryan, hard to tell from a pic, but it looks like those points could use a little bit more edge work. I like to pick those deltas off so the edge is smooth and perfectly straight, then go over it with a really tiny sharp flaker and micro-serrate the whole edge. I've left a pretty heavy blood trail myself from the knapping pit to the medicine cabinet a few times after being careless with the edges of points while sharpening them. :) I usually carry a little sharp flaker with me and touch them up as needed.
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When I make my hunting points the edge is usually kinda ragged, but the edges are super sharp. I'm also very anal about getting my edges sharp and then keeping them that way. When I first started knapping 15 years ago, I always tried to get the sharpest edges possible. Now, for my final series of flakes, I use a pretty sharp antler tine and do what Hillbilly does: Take tiny flakes off to create a finely serrated edge. But then I don't throw them into a quiver and go tromping all over creation either..... they bang together and the edges get dull very quickly. Maybe that's the problem some of ya'll have been having, because once you make the point you then have to protect it! As soon as I haft a stone point, I wrap each point with toilet paper to help cushion and protect them.... and I don't unwrap them until I am about to start hunting.
I'm telling ya guys, I've made stone points with edges so damn sharp that they feel "sticky" when you run your finger over them. Now, they won't shave the hair off your arm, but flying on an arrow at 160 feet-per-second is another story altogether. Don't forget, even something as innocent as a sheet of paper or a blade of grass can cut you if the edge is drawn across your skin fast enough and with enough force.
Speaking of grass, if you look at the edges of a blade of grass very closely, do you know what it looks like?? It has small spikes spaced along the edge, identical to a saw (or a serrated stone point) !
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I agree the edges look to need a little more work in my opinion, but I can't feel it it may be ok I am puzzled by the lack of bloos and substance on the heads, I see a little spot on the shaft but everyone I have shot has had substantial blood and substance on the head and arrow, again I cannot se the whole arrow, but look at the blood on the critter and arrow of this pic:
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q177/anaconda12/541.jpg)
The blood that came from the low chest exit wound was crazy, just walked thru the woods at a normal pace following blood there was no creeping and losing blood the entire 40 to 45 yards where he laid! Convinved me they work.
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Ryano, I think you just had a run of bad luck bud. :-\ It happens to us all.
The top point looks like it might need some touching, but the bottom points looks perty good to me. Shoulda left some kind of blood trail.
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In light of the discussion on this topic, i have put together another set of arrows, chert points on very well tapered foreshafts on cane. they all fly perfect and very thin and as sharp as i can possibly get them (re-sharpened of course after test shooting) when deer season rolls around , i will be giving them another try. they will be shot from the ground at 12 yards or less from my 75# osage bow. they are by far the best point/arrow combo that i have made thus far. So i ofcourse will be sure to inform everyone on the outcome. i truly do want them to work so i am going into it with a good frame of mind trying to prove them justifiably deadly, as opposed to trying to prove they fail. So hopefully i will see good results next time around.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Not to burst your bubble, but ya might might think about taking off them outside edges that flip out.Just make them a straight taper.JMO. I think you'll get better penetration. Other than that,it all looks real good to me.
I applaud you for not giving up on this.
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i was originally concerned with the flared edges, but i needed them to get a "legal width" i actually hoped that they might break off atr impact and give me a "bird point" in essence for better penetration. and if not, at least the hole going in would be bigger. i based the design and size from several points that an archeologist friend of mine has in his collection, some with only one flare still intact and others complete. i was only to surmise, if it was a popular design for the ancients, than perhaps i should re-create it to work for me. the flares are very very thin little blades. i actually have broken a few already testing them, but i made a bunch up so i can just keep slapping new ones on there, i think there are only 2 original survivors from that picture...lol
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Anaconda 12, those pictures are of before the arrows were shot into the deer. The arrows stayed in the deer on both cases....never to be seen again along with my deer.
Timo, three times in one season could definitely qualify as bad luck. The reason I didn't mention the third one is I know the shot placement wasn't the greatest on it, liver shot at best. Another local hunter found that deer nearly a month later with the arrow and stone point still in tacked. While I feel that one was mostly my fault for making a lousy shot, the deer still left no sign to follow, I have recovered lots of gut shot deer shot with a steel head. I just leave them lay all night and go back in the morning. They have always left some sort of a blood trail in the past. :P
I got a few heads from Eddie over the weekend and Steve is going to make a few more for me to try again this year so I guess we'll see. I'm thinking of upping the overall weight of my arrows as well, in the hopes they will get a complete pass through.
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Ryan, looking at those points, I have to agree with Hillbilly. If you look close at the bottom point, you can see flat deltas on the edge, and the points aren't very sharp. I also use triangle points just glued to the shaft, without any criss-cross sinew wrap. I wrap the shaft from splitting only. And if I'm going to shoot it at a deer or hog, sorry, I put it on with real glue I know will not soften under any weather condition. I would also up the weight of the arrow to around 600-725 grn.
And like Billy and Steve, I touch up the edge every night on my points. I also stuff a wad of Spanish Moss in the bottom of my quiver to keep them from rubbing and making noise. I had a State Wildlife Biologist in Kentucky ask me if they were sharp enough to kill a deer. I ran it across his boot and left a 4"cut in the leather. Larry wasn't happy, but he was convinced.
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only thing i can add to this is if you are going to hunt with stone points, you shoulg have some knapping ability. i no longer give hunting points out because every time i see them hafted they are dull. being able to sharpen your heads is vital. i have well over a dozen and a half white tails taken with stone points. one at 35 yards. . i also track out a lot of lost deer for other hunters and can tell ya. even guns and crappy steel points will fail to leave blood. . i also think there is good argument for not having a pass through. most of the animals ive shot were an absolute mess on the inside from the point having stayed inside.
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Twistedlimb, instead of taking out the flair, come under it and bring your corners to a sharp point, they are rounded now. If you have stone exposed you might as well make it all cut and stick.
After reading Jamie's post, it is starting to sound like the consensus is poorly maintained points. I won't even say light arrows is part of the problem, because I know Marc StLouis shoots around 550 grn arrows and Chris Cade has killed deer with light weight bows.
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Muahhh.haa...haaa!! We have convinced twistedlimbs to reenter the stone age and hunt with stone points! >:D I really wish ya the best of luck dude and hope that you can make it happen this time. Just be sure to protect those points like they are tiny eggs so the edges will be of utmost sharpness when they hit that world-record trophy buck this fall. Also, aim VERY close to that shoulder. The one deer I shot this fall when the arrow almost went totally thru her, I thought for sure she was gonna be dead. When I saw that arrow hit, I immediately said to myself "That's a dead deer." Well, turns out my shot was still just a bit too far back and I only got one lung. Oh yeah, she was dead....but where she died is still a mystery and I never found her. I am sending you SUPER luck twistedlimbs....the rest is up to you! :)
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Also another point that we haven't dicussed but most here probly know is the sinew wraps behind the point. By looking at twisted limbs pic I can see that he has got them wrapped well,go deal.
We are not sure what the points do on impact unless we recover the arrow,without ample wraps to hold that point from moving,it could get sideways, or even split the shaft causeing alot of loss of energy.
Just some thoughts, so wrap um well. ;)
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A smooth transition from point to shaft is a must, too-anything that can snag or hang will slow down penetration. Looks like you've got that covered, the shaft ends look tapered and ramped up with pitch.
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heard about this thread at the classic and figured i'd throw my two cents worth in the pot. there are three secrets to killing deer with a bow and i'll list them below:
-SHOT PLACEMENT
-SHOT PLACEMENT
-SHOT PLACEMENT
animals are tough! if you take out both lungs, the animal will die within site. it's that simple. it doesn't matter what they are shot with, steel or stone. i had a very crazy friend of mine shot a doe with a field point through both lungs. she didn't make it 100 yards. he forgot his broadheads that day and had field points in his quiver. i've also seen deer walk off after being hit with a 2.5" vortex expanding broadhead in the chest. i've skinned hundreds of deer, probably over a thousand. i've found everything inside deer, rifle bullets, buckshot, broadheads, and even sticks. i once found most of an arrow shaft with the broadhead in a doe. she had been shot through both shoulders from a treestand. the arrow angled down through the shoulders and stopped in the right front leg. the wound was several years old and she had a fawn that year so she was healthy. i shot a squirrel with a stone point that had to weigh 200gr. it was a quartering away shot while he was climbing up the tree. the point entered below his ribs and the tip of the point broke through at the base of the neck. the squirrel still managed to run to the top of the tree carrying the 700-800gr. arrow. quartering away shots are over rated. true, if the shot is placed just behind the rib cage the point will have an unobstructed path to the lungs. but the angle must be perfect to take out both lungs. one lung is just not good enough. i've seen arrows deflect off ribs on quartering away shots if the angle is too flat. on my last deer i had such a shot. she was staggering away, after being shot in the neck, and i took a severe quartering away shot. the 750gr. grizzly tipped arrow entered just forward of the hip and stopped just short of breaking the skin at the neck and shoulder junction. i only nicked the lung with the shot. my last hog was killed with a stone point. perfect broadside at 10 yards. the arrow buried up to the fletching and the hog ran about 20 yards. it bled like, well, a stuck pig. the story and pics should be in the pa mag soon. one problem i see quite often is hunters using light arrows. i consider 500gr light. i feel a hunting arrow should be 600+ gr. most of mine are in the 700-800gr. range. the main problem i have with stone is they come in around 100gr. for a hunting point, too light. this needs to be offset with a very heavy shaft to aid in penetration. i feel this is overlooked to often.
to see if your set up will work, at least on paper, here's the formula and rules i use:
KE = M * v2 / 450,240
<25 ft. lbs. for small game
30-40 for deer
> 40 for moose and elk
the setup on my hog hunt came to 35.03 ft. lbs. the performance of my arrow proved the numbers correct.
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I totally agree with you Mechslasher, shot placement is key. I believe that poor shot placement is by far the number one reason why deer are not recovered. Every time I've put my arrow where I was aiming, that animal died amazingly fast. When I don't, the animal ends up running away and is very difficult to find. My failures have nothing to do with insufficient power, and everything to do with poor shot placement. When I practice a lot, my accuracy improves, and that improves my success on bringing home meat. Period.
Fred Asbell wrote an article in Traditional Bowhunter several years ago about traditional bows for women, most of which pulled between 40-48 lbs. Fred spoke to several hunters, and a few of them had killed elk with bows pulling 45-48 lbs. But they were shooting very heavy arrows and had practiced rigorously to ensure they could hit the intended target.
And I've also got two friends who have killed two deer each, so 4 deer total, that were carrying fragments of arrows in their bodies. One friend told me he found an entire arrow embedded in the backstrap of a deer he killed. This was a modern arrow, mind you, with a modern steel broadhead and carbon fiber shaft. The friends who found arrow fragments also told me that all the deer that were carrying arrows in their bodies were healthy with no infection present.
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I agree with Chris, shot placement is key to consistant game recovery. But another factor is plane 'ol luck... good or bad. A few years back, i shoot a deer with a compound with all the gizmo's and the latest whizzbang broadhead. Now to my minds eye, I made a perfect shoat. Right behind the shoulder. I never found even a single drop of blood, and never found the deer. A couple years back I shot a doe with a selfbow, cane arrow, and stone point. I hit her in front of the shoulder, and the arrow latterly bounced off. The deer jumped at the shot, trotted off a little ways and started walking again. Now there was only a little blood on the point, and none on the ground, but that deer walked about 50 yards and simply lay ed down and died.
Does a stone point work? A well designed and sharp point works very well.
When I first started using selfbows, they were in the 75-80 lb range. In the last few years, I have started useing bows around 55 lbs, taking special care with matching arrow spine to the bow I'm hunting with. I actually get better penetration now than with the heaver bows.
The primitive arrow has been the hardest aspect of my hunting get up since I started useing primitive gear. A stone point not only needs to be sharp, but the design and how it is halfted is crucial as well. the arrow shaft must be matched perfectly with the bow so it leaves the bow and recovers from the paradox as quickly as possable. We've all seen arrows that fly nock left or right as it leave our bows. If a deer is close, as is usually the case when hunting with stone points, and the arrow is still not recovered fully; then penetration will suffer.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/th100_0103.jpg)
Point after passthrough on whitetail with 75 lb bow
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/838603-R1-03-4.jpg)
Point after passthrough with 55 lb selfbow
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Here are a few ready for the hunt
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/0162.jpg)
Pitcken chert, Mahogany and black obsidian, and Georgetown
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david, those points look great. i killed a hog with one of your obsidian points last summer. busted through a rib on the way out and only suffered a very small chip at the tip. keep up the good work!
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Ducked out of this one for awhile...this has been some great stuff. I may be tempted to try getting one with a stone myself....who knows?? But before Twistedlimbs gets a chance.....I know if I have to depend on myself to make one, I may as well just stand in a tree with a thirty pound rock and hope I can drop it down on one's head, lol!!
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Dax there are plenty of guys on here who can knap points....get in touch with them and I'm sure someone would make you a set to hunt with. Might have to trade something for them of course.
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I've already sent him a PM, Billy. :) I'd like to see him get one.
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What is the biggest toughest game any of you have taken with a stone point?? My biggest was a 400+lbs boarhog with a stone point Billy made and a 59# self bow. The point stoped in the off side shoulder.
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I knapped the heads that Ryano used an I believe that Hillbilly is correct in assuming that the deltas needed to be removed an a finer serrated edge put on. At the time I had only been Knapping for 2 1/2 yrs an know that just in the last 6 months my points have gotten thinner an a lot sharper thanks to guys like Hillbilly an Jesse an any others that I may have forgotten. This has been a very informative thread, Again thanks to every one for some great input an info. Just sorry that my points did'nt work out for Ryan. Thanks Bob
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Here are a few better pics
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/010-1.jpg)
Obsidian point used in pass through on whitetail
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/017.jpg)
First all primitive kill, selfbow, sinew string, cane arrow
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/016.jpg)
Point used on 8 point this last Fall, Quartering away, angled into the vitals
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/021.jpg)
Spine shot on a doe, deer went straight down, but did require a follow up stone pointed arrow
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Selfbow those are awesome, especially the one with the stone point buried in the backbone. Do you think you could post a few more pics of the backbone at different angles, so we can see the penetration depth of that point??? Thanks!!!
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Billy, the point was a corner notched style made from raw Texas flint.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/008-1.jpg)
In this pic you can see the tip punched through the other side of the spinal collum. The spinal cord was completely severed when i took this piece of vertebrae out.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b327/selfbow1/009.jpg)
Side view. The point held together fairly well. The tip did break off a little., and the shaft broke off breaking the point between the notches.
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Selfbow,
Did that point sever the spinal cord? It looks like it did.....
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The spinal cord was cut cleanly into.
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That is extremely cool, thanks for showing us.
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AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!