data on the Mary Rose bows/arrows

[triton]

first extract says to me that, although they had two strings, one was in use and because there was little room to move, they had little or no chance of fitting the second string.  so making him almost useless.

second extract looks like Ascham is referring to the stronger war archers as not so accurate as those using lighter bows..
After all, I doubt I'd be too fussed about accuracy at 2-300 yards when there are likely to be thousands of arrows hitting the general area. 

[ratty]

first extract says to me that, although they had two strings, one was in use and because there was little room to move, they had little or no chance of fitting the second string.  so making him almost useless.

second extract looks like Ascham is referring to the stronger war archers as not so accurate as those using lighter bows..
After all, I doubt I'd be too fussed about accuracy at 2-300 yards when there are likely to be thousands of arrows hitting the general area. 

hello mike :-)

the first quote i used was a little long, the part i was refuring to was this part  :-)

God send us good stringers both for war and peace. Now what a string ought to be made on, whether of good hemp, as they do now-a-days, or of flax, or of silk, I leave that to the judgement of stringers, of whom we must buy them.

this tells me hemp seems to be more used than silk at this time.

[triton]

sadly the "hemp" used then is now illegal

[ratty]

sadly the "hemp" used then is now illegal

yep so i believe,

i have done most of my experiments with linen, but am now making a few silk strings ,they seem quite promising to be used on warbows. ive experimented with linen upto 110# . and it works well.but does break after time, but usually as the arrow is launched and not while drawing the bow.which enables the bow to survive the break quite well.

i believe linen would have been a good roving string, but maybe not the best for warfare. in my opinion, but am still open minded to peoples practical findings. :-)

[triton]

I'm going to give the fella a chance to recover from the holiday but I have a contact in Poland that can supply long strand raw hemp.  I'm keen to give it a go.  There's also some obscure reference to strings being whipped for their entire length (perhaps with silk) to add strength.

[ratty]

I'm going to give the fella a chance to recover from the holiday but I have a contact in Poland that can supply long strand raw hemp.  I'm keen to give it a go.  There's also some obscure reference to strings being whipped for their entire length (perhaps with silk) to add strength.

excellent :-)

i will be interseted to hear your results.

are you going to try the hemp string on your 110# lam warbow ?

[bow-toxo]

i don't believe ascham's books are the be all and end of military archery. infact i believe them to be more about pastime shooting.
i think this quote is good

    A few points concerning your belief versus facts. Henry VIII promoted and legally required archery practice for war, not pastime.

    Ascham refers to shooting at the butts as well as 'prick' [clout] shooting. Nearly alll able bodied Englishmen were required to shoot at the butts from the ages of 16 to 60 as required by law to prepare archers for war, not pastime..

      Ascham wrote 'Toxophilus' at the request and patronage of Henry VIII to instruct in archery as practice for war, not pastime.

      All archers were required to practice at the butts as above mentioned . There were not special butts for the regular archers and other special butts for pastime shooters.


this tells me hemp seems to be more used than silk at this time.

  Hemp came into common use in the late Middle Ages, not so long before Aascham;r time.I recently made up a hemp string of 20 pound hemp, three strands of 3 strings each, total 180 pounds, just about 1/8" thick. Coarse stuff but OK.

the first book of the school of shooting by Roger Ascham.

this tells me they are shooting lighter bows than they would at war.or not drawing there bows to there full potential .     what do you think?

  They were using fully drawn arrows of Mary Rose length and shorter bows that had to cast the distances required by law, but I would guess they would have been of lighter draw weight, especially for the teen agers.

[ratty]

i don't believe ascham's books are the be all and end of military archery. infact i believe them to be more about pastime shooting.
i think this quote is good

    A few points concerning your belief versus facts. Henry VIII promoted and legally required archery practice for war, not pastime.

    Ascham refers to shooting at the butts as well as 'prick' [clout] shooting. Nearly alll able bodied Englishmen were required to shoot at the butts from the ages of 16 to 60 as required by law to prepare archers for war, not pastime..

      Ascham wrote 'Toxophilus' at the request and patronage of Henry VIII to instruct in archery as practice for war, not pastime.

      All archers were required to practice at the butts as above mentioned . There were not special butts for the regular archers and other special butts for pastime shooters.


this tells me hemp seems to be more used than silk at this time.

  Hemp came into common use in the late Middle Ages, not so long before Aascham;r time.I recently made up a hemp string of 20 pound hemp, three strands of 3 strings each, total 180 pounds, just about 1/8" thick. Coarse stuff but OK.

the first book of the school of shooting by Roger Ascham.

this tells me they are shooting lighter bows than they would at war.or not drawing there bows to there full potential .     what do you think?

  They were using fully drawn arrows of Mary Rose length and shorter bows that had to cast the distances required by law, but I would guess they would have been of lighter draw weight, especially for the teen agers.

the opening words od the book.

TOXOPHILUS,

The School of Shooting
contained in two
books.

To all Gentlemen and yeoman of England,
pleasant for their pastime to read,
and profitable for their use
to follow, both in war
and peace.


how many peasants could read at this time ? (not many i'm sure. which says to me that the book was aimed toward wealther people of the time)

pleasant for their pastime to read,

this tells me that the book was for people that enjoyed shooting and not aimed at people that were forced to shoot by law.

with in saying this i do realise it was compulsary to practice with a bow for war and peace but not everyone shooting would have come anywhere near being a warbow archer,very few would have shown exceptional skill and strength.so it was encouraged as a competative sport with rewards to encourage people away from probably playing football or dice.

[triton]

since the invention of the printing press in 1440, literacy boomed in England, especially in the cities.  by the 16thC even women were learning to read 
I think the language needs to be thought about as a lot different to current literary works. This phrase "pleasant for their pastime to read", I believe these days that would translate to "a nice bedtime read" or "easy to read" rather than being a heavyweight tome. 
To be taken more seriously than the witterings of a dandy in my opinion.  But so much of his works are taken out of context or ignored entirely, so what does it matter?  may as well put it out of reach and make it up as we go along to suit our own ends 

[ratty]

thanks mike

i think dandy's appeared around 1795 - 1820  . i believe it was a fashion of clothing .

i think around the time of ascham 1500ish the first books written in english and not latin were appearing. which may have helped the written word extend to a larger audience :-)

[bow-toxo]

Ratty; The quote tells me that the book is addressed to gentlemen and yeomen. Gentlemen were the nobles, not gentle by the modern definition. They owed their position to their immediate readiness to fight for their king with the weapons and armour appropriate to their position. Yeomen, the higher class of peasants who owned their own land, were renowned as the finest warbow archers in existence. But you knew that, cidn't you ?  If very few ot the population could have used warbows, maybe you can tell me how the crown found ten archers for every man-at-arms at the end of the Hundred Years War ?

Triton; Since you don't consider the book worth anything because it is ignored, you might as well ignore it. Great reasoning !  Good luck making up history while ignoring it. That is a challenge. Perhaps you will come up with something so much better than your historical heritage.

                                                        Cheers,
                                                          Erik

[outcaste]

If very few ot the population could have used warbows, maybe you can tell me how the crown found ten archers for every man-at-arms at the end of the Hundred Years war ?

I guess that the gene pool at that time would have been around the 3 million to which to draw the appropriate standard of archery from.

I am thinking of the numbers of modern archers shooting today with warbow weights and to an historical standard as a percentage of the population as a whole. I guess if more people practised archery (warbow) then we would see a potential tapped and accuracy and distances over 240 yards with heavy arrows common place.

Alistair

[Yeomanbowman]

I've just finished reading a couple of chapters of  Literacy and the Social Order: Reading and Writing in Tudor and Stuart England
by David Cressy, and he mentions Ascham as an example of an advocate of literacy for the general populace as a means of social control.  It seems that what passes as being literate in Tudor times is ambiguous but being illiterate was not seen as a disadvantage or had any stigma attached to it.  However I was surprised that literacy may have been higher than 30% in the Stuart period.  As Mike says printing and Protestantism certainly promoted literacy.

Perhaps the great man did have ideas of his works being for a wide readership but whether this was achieved with Toxophilus I doubt (well not until much later).  Some of the rudimentary shooting information suggest to me that he in mind, as the primary target for his information, novice shooters and not hardend expert military archers.  I think he may well have tried to encourage greater participation in archery, which would have pleased Henry VIII.  It sadly didn't halt the decline of the warbow though.    

[triton]

Triton; Since you don't consider the book worth anything because it is ignored, you might as well ignore it. Great reasoning !  Good luck making up history while ignoring it. That is a challenge. Perhaps you will come up with something so much better than your historical heritage.

                                                        Cheers,
                                                          Erik

calm down Erik, I was being sarcastic.  some readers of those books have cherry picked the parts they agree with and discount the rest as it doesn't fit their personal agenda.  If you read what I'd said previously, you should understand I have high regard for Aschams teachings.

[ratty]

I've just finished reading a couple of chapters of  Literacy and the Social Order: Reading and Writing in Tudor and Stuart England
by David Cressy, and he mentions Ascham as an example of an advocate of literacy for the general populace as a means of social control.  It seems that what passes as being literate in Tudor times is ambiguous but being illiterate was not seen as a disadvantage or had any stigma attached to it.  However I was surprised that literacy may have been higher than 30% in the Stuart period.  As Mike says printing and Protestantism certainly promoted literacy.

Perhaps the great man did have ideas of his works being for a wide readership but whether this was achieved with Toxophilus I doubt (well not until much later).  Some of the rudimentary shooting information suggest to me that he in mind, as the primary target for his information, novice shooters and not hardend expert military archers.  I think he may well have tried to encourage greater participation in archery, which would have pleased Henry VIII.  It sadly didn't halt the decline of the warbow though.    

excellent post