Author Topic: Primitive bow culture mythology  (Read 5131 times)

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Offline Digital Caveman

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2021, 09:42:31 am »
My whole point was that people like oldman who got ripped apart for making a holmegaard that wasn't prefect, maybe his was actually perfect, but people act like that 9000 year old bow is a step above everything else when maybe it isn't. Maybe the fragments are because one of the bows blew up and the maker pitched it into the bog : )

I think we have to assume that the artifacts where average for their time and place because we have so little to compare them to.  Perfect is a measure of how well something does compared to what it is supposed to do.
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Offline PatM

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 10:28:08 am »
If you make the design and tiller it well the benefits of it become readily apparent.   A broader limbed white wood bow with tapered tips is still an excellent design.  Look at the design as a whole, not just one individual bow.

 

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 02:59:43 pm »
I think I would have to see the bow in person, and the kind of wood they have to work with,, maybe that is the best design given the wood,, the deflexed tips may be allowing the bow to be draw without breaking, I am just guessing,, or have some idea of the cast of the bow ,, with a hunting arrow, maybe a full draw, and chrono results,, )P( (-S

Offline PatM

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 05:31:03 pm »
If you look at pictures of their bows you will see a wide variation in tiller.  Some good to great, some awful.   As you tend to see in any skill where people DIY.

Offline GlisGlis

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2021, 05:08:13 am »
Have a close look at the bow   )P(


Offline GlisGlis

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2021, 07:12:22 am »
I understand and agree with Allyn position
The basic concept is that we tend to fill the gaps of absence of information using knowledge and experiences of our life and that could be misleading.
In the second picture look at the bow in background on the right



Offline Victor

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2021, 04:48:11 pm »
As for Hadza, their bows can be very powerful. The article "Mechanics of Archery among Hadza Hunter-Gatherers" describes the measurements of some bows, as well as the anthropometric data of the shooters. Best of all, they sometimes use bows with a pulling force greater than their own weight!

Offline WhistlingBadger

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2021, 01:50:24 pm »
Interesting discussion!

I think it's true that, in a survival situation, good enough is good enough.  If I were lost in the woods and starving, I could whack down a green chokecherry branch, string it with a shoelace, strap a couple found feathers to a reasonably straight, green shoot, and probably make something that would kill a deer at close range. It wouldn't last long, but if I lived in an area with lots of straight chokecherry branches, it might be more efficient just make a new bow every few days and never bother with finely crafting one out of seasoned wood. I read somewhere that the extremely long, d-cross section English longbow design at least partially came about because good bow wood was fairly rare, and with that design it's easy to mass-produce a whole bunch of bows from one tree trunk (compared to flat bows, sinew-backed bows, etc).  In a primitive situation, I would think that the making of artistic, finely finished, high performing bows is something of a luxury.  If I'm really depending on archery for my life, my design has to be both effective AND efficiently cheap (in materials, time, resources) to build.

Here's another aspect to this that's already been mentioned:  I think it's entirely possible that sometimes, the people one sees in such pictures aren't as "primitive" as the pictures would indicate.  How many people in developing countries will wear their animal skins and carry bows around while the tourists are in the village, then put all that stuff away and get back into t-shirts after they leave?  Sometimes, when I see a picture of someone holding an obviously substandard, but very quaint-looking, piece of gear, I suspect that's what's going on.  It's probably pretty common.
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Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2021, 02:21:43 pm »
I really enjoyec ther part about pulling more draw weight than there body weight,,nice :)

Offline PatM

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2021, 02:27:19 pm »
The Hadza always have modern clothing on because apparently the Government does not allow them to dress traditionally.

 It is true that many pictures you see of San tribesmen are staged as most no longer live that life.

Offline Tommy D

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2021, 08:57:05 pm »
The bow is only one small part of the equation; in Africa one could easily debate the design merits of many of the bows and find them somewhat lacking - especially when compared to some of the works of art displayed by bowyers here on PA.  Bow designs themselves vary hugely between different tribes - the Hadza are merely one of 125 different ones in Tanzania - add 45 in Kenya and  30 in Uganda - and you already have over 200 distinct peoples merely in East Africa alone.  Whilst bows vary between regions, peoples and individuals - one thing you cannot argue with is the almost universal use of poison by anyone doing “serious” archery. The effectiveness and lethality of arrow poisons is irrefutable - even today - in the era of the centerfire rifle - it is the technology of choice for bringing down big game - especially if you are trying to avoid detection by the wildlife authorities! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satao_(elephant)

So - whilst the bow might be “primitive” - it’s sole purpose is to deliver a very complex concoction of poisons that display some very advanced chemistry!

Perhaps the English warbow would not have had to be so strong, or made of yew, or tipped with armour piercing bodkins, were its only purpose to deliver a lethal dose of cardiac glycosides at 15 paces?

Offline Deerhunter21

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2021, 09:11:17 pm »
yeah but there is only so much poision that you can get and keep fresh!!! to them i think they thought "these people arnt worth my poison!"  (lol)
Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.

Offline HH~

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2021, 02:25:42 pm »
Killing to eat is far different
Than eating to kill you enemies. Bows are weapons and Tommy hits on this. Development drew to kill while armored or at greater distances.

Warfare had a big say in the bows ability to effecticate human outcomes!

HH~
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Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2021, 02:41:12 pm »
It is easy to imagine in a situation where game is very common, cover is sufficient, hunters exhibiting excellent skills, and no external pressure such as ongoing war or fighting, an individual would knock together a merely functional bow and call it a day so he can spend more time with his buddies laughing at farts, gambling, and gossiping.

Scarce game, drought, no cover for ambushing, and looming threats day and night, and I'd be all for crafting a bow that would do everything I could ask of it and if that other guy keeps coming around bothering me with the same fart joke he has told since we were kids, I am gonna give him a busted lip to show around the village.
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Primitive bow culture mythology
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2021, 04:22:31 pm »
You are your environment. Name the place and time. Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!