Author Topic: New heat treating method??  (Read 68272 times)

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Offline PatM

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #315 on: January 03, 2020, 10:27:29 am »
There is little reason to worry about the back if you manage the process well.

Offline Santanasaur

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #316 on: January 03, 2020, 12:30:33 pm »
aznboi—sleek and some members were talking about doing something like this some threads back. I ended up trying it and got a decent quality heat treat but all the sand and gravel I got in the bow made it really nasty on my bladed tools. I also had to keep reapplying mud as it baked on and caked off, which is a pain around an active fire.

Id like to try it again but next time i’ll use much finer clay or a slurry of ash or something else that won’t chip my tools. The  mud definitely kept the back from getting too hot to touch but I also didn’t notice the heat treatment going unusually deep.

patm i agree that usually there’s no need to worry about the back. This method would only be for heat treats that are so extreme that they might affect the back. It just seems to me that the back scorching is the limiting factor on how deep heat treating can go at the max, so removing  that variable could unlock the possibility for deeper treatment.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 12:41:51 pm by Santanasaur »

Offline PatM

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #317 on: January 03, 2020, 12:53:05 pm »
I don't really think so. A slow heat treat will go almost all the way through.   You can see this by cutting up a treated limb.

  At some point the depth of the heat treat is counterproductive as far as back safety goes  so you'll be walking that fine  line either way.

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #318 on: January 03, 2020, 03:39:56 pm »
I got the fire hardened bow dvd and watched it, very well done. It opens the door to a lot of experimentation of this concept in the future for second string white wood bows.

The rules for this treatment aren't hard and fast, with as many great boyers as there are out there I am sure we will see this concept experimented with and advanced even more.

I probably have 25 arrow straight sweetgum trees on my little 4 acre place, some are 12-14" in diameter, some larger, some smaller. It would be fun turning some of this trash wood into shootable bows. You would have to saw it into staves, it doesn't split worth a hoot.

Offline Santanasaur

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #319 on: January 03, 2020, 04:26:39 pm »
Patm I shouldn’t have said” deep” heat treating when i really meant aggressive, either in time or temperature. I think heat treating past the neutral plane would be counterproductive, and you’re definitely right that it’s not hard to reach that deep.

I usually stop when the back starts getting too hot, so the hope is that by keeping the back cool, the heat treat could be more aggressive on the belly before it starts to have an effect beyond the neutral plane. Maybe it’s a longshot, just  something i’ve played with trying to get a few percent better here or there

Offline PatM

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #320 on: January 03, 2020, 05:16:27 pm »
 The tests done on heat treated wood for other purposes really narrow down the productive range of temperature and time.

 Marc mentioned overdoing a bow and briefly getting pretty spectacular results but it wasn't  a long  lasting bow.  Might be a good trick for a record flight bow however.

  Personally I think a heat treating that mimics a typical backing to belly ratio in a simple laminated bow is the best goal.

Offline Halfbow

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #321 on: January 06, 2020, 09:12:00 pm »

You are talking about a culture with more knowledge of wood than you and I. You are talking about a culture who uses fire more than you and I.

  I love Native American Culture as much as anyone  but their knowledge largely  relied on the "just enough to get by and not an ounce more".   There was no need to do more.

 And I say that with no disrespect to them.

Compare what other cultures have done with wood, stone and fire and you'll understand.

I'm just getting caught up on this conversation, but I definitely think some aspects of native culture have been getting overly dismissed here. I'm all about science, and the extent of modern knowledge is amazing. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a sizeable percentage of natives knew more about wood than you or I (that's not to say they knew more than all the knowledge contained in modern libraries and scientific journals).

'Largely just enough to get by' is a terrible description of their knowledge. A life of hunting and gathering is hard, but modern people have many misguided ideas about it. Native societies had actually had a good deal more leisure time than the white agricultural societies that lived alongside them. This was the seed of a lot of racism. White people saw them as lazy, but the native life simply wasn't as hard as the farming life. Also, they were better fed through the winter, with white settlements often having to rely on the native's help and knowledge to avoid starving.

I'm not saying they knew more than we do now, probably not, but science is still learning from their knowledge of the environments they lived in and we can only guess at how much knowledge has been lost. The extent of their knowledge on plants was amazing, but every now and again you come across an example that defies reason. Like when combining 2 plants in to a drink in a specific way has a strong effect, but individually either plant has no effect at all. Without foreknowledge, looking around at all the thousands of species of plants, it boggles the mind to imagine how they discovered that. Were they trying the millions of different combinations of plants, and remembering the millions of different results of each test without a writing system, recording the injuries and deaths from the bad combinations, until they found something good? When a native was asked how they could possibly know astronomically unlikely things like that, the native looked confused and replied, "Do the plants not sing to you?" I don't believe in mystical powers or anything, and I have no idea what that answer means. But I think it's clear that they had a connection with the land that a modern person can scarcely imagine.

What they could do with stone? Look at the Incan walls of Cuzco for some of the most amazing stone work possibly ever, anywhere. I can't even begin to understand how they did it. Tellingly, some of the most impressed people today are modern stone masons. Contemporary accounts of the Aztecs are replete with the marvels of their craft. The conquistadors said their gold work would challenge the best gold smiths of Spain, and when the Spanish got Aztec carpenters to help to build Spanish war ships, the conquistadors remarked that they were probably the highest quality Spanish ships ever made. The first conquistadors write about feeling like they were in an alien fantasy land from some fanciful novel, dotted with temples that they say were equal in splendor to European cathedrals. This was before the Spanish set about destroying the culture, which they succeeded at to a horrifying degree.

But the various cultures of the Americas were as different from each other as they were from the Europeans, and obviously the nomads of the North American plains lived in a very different way from the civilizations of Central and South America. But North America had impressive civilizations too, ones we know very little about today. Civilizations that had come and gone before the Europeans had a chance to see.

But even just the North American cultures the Europeans did see. Particularly the earlier accounts, before European disease and war took their toll. The crafts are not the works of a people who are living on the edge of survival. These things took serious time and skill, as I'm sure you will agree, and elaborately decorated objects work about as well as non-decorated ones. Not an ounce more than what is necessary? Quite the contrary.

Anyway, bit of a side debate, but I'd feel bad not contributing to it.


Offline sleek

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #322 on: January 06, 2020, 09:28:03 pm »
My biggest gripe about them was the appearance that they didnt stick with 10gpp and post before and after numbers of the same bow with the heat treat. Not enough scientific method applied. But that's from the advertising and previews. Is the video more scientific?
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Offline Eric Garza

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #323 on: January 07, 2020, 11:12:22 am »
Sleek, I would say that, unfortunately, the video is not much more scientific than you portray. I wrote about that in my review a few pages back. They could have done a much better job documenting things, though I admit they did a decent job documenting the consequences of humidity changes on the wood's moisture content. A good video, overall, though it leaves plenty of questions for others to pursue.

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #324 on: January 07, 2020, 03:25:22 pm »
I have said this before.  You can heat-treat a bow in as many ways as you want but you will never increase the wood's elasticity while doing it.
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

Marc@Ironwoodbowyer.com

Offline sleek

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #325 on: January 07, 2020, 05:16:15 pm »
I have said this before.  You can heat-treat a bow in as many ways as you want but you will never increase the wood's elasticity while doing it.

I like how that was said.
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Offline sleek

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Re: New heat treating method??
« Reply #326 on: January 07, 2020, 05:16:36 pm »
Sleek, I would say that, unfortunately, the video is not much more scientific than you portray. I wrote about that in my review a few pages back. They could have done a much better job documenting things, though I admit they did a decent job documenting the consequences of humidity changes on the wood's moisture content. A good video, overall, though it leaves plenty of questions for others to pursue.

Thanks bud.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others