Range

[Hawkdancer]

I think we missed Russell's point of a hypothetical shot perfectly in the heart!  The question was about penetration at that range.  Me, 20 yards is maximum with a bow, and only after a full season of practice, see my earlier comment about the grapefruit.
Hawkdancer

[PEARL DRUMS]

We didn't miss it, we just expanded on it. It was the perfect opportunity to teach the young man some things that related to his hypothetical question.

[bradsmith2010]

   Hawkdancer,, I think your right,, it kinda went off track,, but in a postive way
   DC,, I dont take anything away from those guys back then,, and some game will stand there till the arrow hits them,, but spooky little white tails,, usually dont stand for it,, making a good shot on them very difficult,, shooting at them at long range,, is pretty usless unless you want to loose your arrow,,,
    when guys shot field archery at long range,, I can see why that translated into there hunting at some point,,for me personally,, I wouldnt advise long range shots at game,,,Im not saying it cant be done,,,of course it has,, but in the big picture,, I think its not a good practice,, If I could have a conversation with Pope,, I would just say you are gifted and can pull it off, but most archers can not,, and probably should not do it,,if he insisted that I was wrong,,,,, I would just say ok,, I dont need to be right,, and continue shooting close like I like,,,
   

[Bryce]

I'm not a hunter but if a deer has an arrow in it's heart I believe it would die no matter what the range. I think you are asking if if it would have enough penetration to make it to the heart at 40yds. Well, I have shot my 40 # bow 255 yds and it stuck eight inches into hard dirt. I'm sure it would have made it to the deer's heart. And I wasn't using a broadhead. These things are very dangerous at any range.

Well.... I’m not sure that’s the same. At a certain point your arrow slows down and then gravity isn’t working against you anymore. It’ll start to fall, pulling your arrow to its terminal velocity; energy that your bow didn’t give to the arrow.


For that weight of a bow I wouldnt shoot past 30. If your arrow is heavy enough you should be okay, but definitely not ideal... or responsible. I hunt with 75-80# bow and I’ve killed at 40 yards np. I didn’t know it was 40 when I shot bc I’m bad at that sorta thing.  when you have that kind of push behind your point it opens up a lot more opportunities. So do  I take advantage of those super clean 60 yard shots(which I practice at all the time) ... no. I did once, and as soon as I loosed I regretted it immediately the arrow hit exactly where I wanted, complete pass through. But it doesn’t matter bc the further away just increases the odds against you in every way. I’m always advocating heavier weight bows for hunting. Might be overkill but that’s fine bc I want to kill and not having to second guess the physics of it. Sometimes it’s hard to guess range. Whether your in a blind or a stand it’s not a bad idea to mark out the range in your shooting lanes. A quick heal to the dirt or stick in the ground no second guessing required.

[bradsmith2010]

  marking a distance is a good Idea if you are in a blind,, something you wont shoot past,,
I usually make a mental note of how far I will shoot,,
if your not in a blind,,you may have to make a judgement call on the spot,, thats part of the challenge,,
I think I have made every mistake there is to make ,, not shooting fast enough,, not waiting long enough,,
letting the deer get to close,,,  shooting to far,,, etc etc etc,,
   every shot is different,,
   

[Mesophilic]

Here in the mountains in the west I have to be comfortable shooting to 30 yards and would like to extend that to 40 yards.  We don't have alot of dense forests that are found east of the Mississippi.   Alot of more open forests and dry grassy areas.  Alot of spot and stalk.   I won't go in to all the dynamics but it takes a different strategy than when I lived in the midwest.

The best method (humane) to contemplate arrow penetration would be to shoot at dead animals, but most of us don't have those just laying around.  So it's on to theory.

Using an online calculator based on the previous mentioned scenario here's some numbers.  I can't account for arrow velocity loss during flight so I'm just running it based on different velocities.

Arrow Weight: 450 grains / Arrow Speed: 160 fps

Kinetic Energy: 25.58 FOOT-POUNDS

Momentum: 0.32 SLUGS



Arrow Weight: 450 grains / Arrow Speed: 150 fps

Kinetic Energy: 22.48 FOOT-POUNDS

Momentum: 0.3 SLUGS



Arrow Weight: 450 grains / Arrow Speed: 140 fps

Kinetic Energy: 19.58 FOOT-POUNDS

Momentum: 0.28 SLUGS


A drop in velocity from 160 to 140 gives us a 12.5% reduction in velocity and momentum.   How that translates in to penetration reduction is beyond me but at least it gives you something to visualize.

[Hawkdancer]

I'm not familiar with the term SLUGS as it relates to fps.  Where in the west are you?  Thanks,
Hawkdancer

[Mesophilic]

I'm not familiar with the term SLUGS as it relates to fps.  Where in the west are you?  Thanks,
Hawkdancer

A slug is defined as the mass that is accelerated by 1 ft/s2 when a force of one pound (lbf) is exerted on it.

Smater people than I could explain it better but my understanding is that momentum in foot pounds of energy describes the impact of a projectile but slugs give a better idea of penetration and how it carries that energy.   So I simply just accept that the higher the slug unit the better the terminal performance and quit trying to understand the physics.

I'm in northern New Mexico.

[Bryce]

I'm not familiar with the term SLUGS as it relates to fps.  Where in the west are you?  Thanks,
Hawkdancer

slug is used to quantify chemical and mechanical, liquid and gas flow as it relates to velocity.

Yeah I’m guessing he’s not near the coast like me. We ain’t got any open ground. Unless it’s maintained cattle grounds.

[Hawkdancer]

We got open spaces where 200 yards is a close shot, and dark timber and sagebrush where 5 yards is a long shot, if you can get enough room to aim a rifle or a bow! !  Both within an hour or less drive time!  I think I understand slugs a little better,  if it relates to foot/pounds of energy on target!
Hawkdancer

[Eric Krewson]

My first shot at a deer 50 years ago was at about 40 yards up a slight hill, the deer was looking at me. When I shot the deer had time to take 3 complete steps before the arrow got there, it passed a foot or so behind the deer. Lesson learned, I have won the Alabama state championship twice with my selfbow but still limit my shots to less than 18 yards, it is the ethical thing for me to do.

[bradsmith2010]

yep,, about 15 is a good shot

[Deerhunter21]

Thank you guys!

[bradsmith2010]

  in my mind I think the Native hunters probably shot close if possible,,
even me, when I am deciding to take a shot,, loosing an arrow comes into play in my decision,If I feel the shot is close enough Im not gonna miss and lose and arrow,, its in my range,,, and I am sure they did not want to loose an arrow on a long maybe shot,, better to shoot  an arrow on a high percentage shot and get some game,, I am thinking,,...not only ethical,, but practical,, the closer shots just give you a higher percentage of success,,
  Im ok if the arrow gets broken in the animal,,, thats just an investment you have to make,,
   

[StickMark]

On YouTube, a guy named Paul Harrel makes a "meat target."  I did this to test pistol ammo. Very eye opening.  Testing broadheads on a meat target at distance is relatively cheap vs hours reading internet evidence.  I am getting better in my own retraining of form, but about 30 yards is probably max with about 43 to 46 weight.