New PB

[PatM]

I believe they have the two inch deep handle rule which  allows you to draw an arrow as far as you dare to the belly side.

[Badger]

  The skill of the flight shooter is a huge part in these classes. It is not hard to make a 50# bow that will shoot 350 or even 400 yards with a light arrow. The trick is getting it out of your bow cleanly and building an arrow that can carry that kind of distance without pooping out on you. The archer and the arrow are at least 70% of the equation.

[avcase]

I believe they have the two inch deep handle rule which  allows you to draw an arrow as far as you dare to the belly side.

That’s a good point about the maximum handle depth.  If I were making a self Flight bow, I would use all 2 inches of the depth allowed, and I’d draw the arrow as far as possible before it starts to fall free of the belly side of the shelf.  This is where the bow was drawn to in order to verify the draw weight.  I should have a picture or two of Dan’s bow.  I don’t think he took full advantage of the handle depth.

[Badger]

I usually find myself stopping at least 1/4" before it falls off more often about 3/8 I think.

[PatM]

Even if you are not drawing to the max even half the handle would be an extra inch of draw which can make a fair bit of difference if the bow has it in it.

[DC]

Just curious, if they are measuring a 5 curve would they put a straight edge across the back and measure the two inches from there?

[Badger]

Just curious, if they are measuring a 5 curve would they put a straight edge across the back and measure the two inches from there?

  They go by the handle

[Tuomo]

If I were making a self Flight bow, I would use all 2 inches of the depth allowed, and I’d draw the arrow as far as possible before it starts to fall free of the belly side of the shelf.  This is where the bow was drawn to in order to verify the draw weight.  I should have a picture or two of Dan’s bow.  I don’t think he took full advantage of the handle depth.

Please could you be more specific - I don't understand what is advantage of the full thickness handle. Of course it is more rigid but it was not the point now. If draw weight is always measured to the belly side of the handle and arrow length is fixed, then handle thickness is insignificant. If the handle is for example five inches thick and it is protruding towards the back side of the bow (like reverse handle) - no meaning in view of measuring draw length. If the handle is protruding towards belly side of the bow (like conventional handle), what then? With five inches thick handle the brace height will be very low - or the bow overstressed. How you could get more draw length or more stored energy or some other advantage with very thick handle?

[JNystrom]

The trick is the same as with siper. You get to use shorter arrows. So in this case 1,5 - 1,75" shorter.
Nothing to do with poundage and energy storage. Actually, handle in front of the bow would be better. You could shoot shorter bows and shorter arrows with heavier poundage.

150 grain arrow is awesome. I think its doable with pine/spruce at 22"...maybe. I will definitely try these tricks on summer.

Sorry about OT in Del's topic, but flight is too interesting!

edit: But wouldn't it be the same if you just skipped the thick handle and lowered brace equal amount? I'm baffled after all.

[Marc St Louis]

If I were making a self Flight bow, I would use all 2 inches of the depth allowed, and I’d draw the arrow as far as possible before it starts to fall free of the belly side of the shelf.  This is where the bow was drawn to in order to verify the draw weight.  I should have a picture or two of Dan’s bow.  I don’t think he took full advantage of the handle depth.

Please could you be more specific - I don't understand what is advantage of the full thickness handle. Of course it is more rigid but it was not the point now. If draw weight is always measured to the belly side of the handle and arrow length is fixed, then handle thickness is insignificant. If the handle is for example five inches thick and it is protruding towards the back side of the bow (like reverse handle) - no meaning in view of measuring draw length. If the handle is protruding towards belly side of the bow (like conventional handle), what then? With five inches thick handle the brace height will be very low - or the bow overstressed. How you could get more draw length or more stored energy or some other advantage with very thick handle?

It's also about the power stroke

[Badger]

   Arrow length id not fixed. A longer deeper arrow shelf allows you to use a lighter shorter arrow for the same draw length.

[Tuomo]

If minimum arrow length is 24", then it can be considered fixed. And it is fixed if you compare two different bows with different kind of handles. Then, maximum distance between belly side of the handle and string is 24 inches. It is insignificant, what kind of the handle is. And power stroke is always the same (if arrow is 24"). If the handle is very thick toward belly side, then limbs are stressed more compared to forward handle, whereupon the bow can be reflexed more - for same stresses. Lets suppose that brace height is for example 4" (brace height is always distance between string and deepest point of the handle or arrow pass point=).

It is balance between arrow length, power stroke, brace height and limb stresses - and handle thickness is insignificant variable (supposing fixed length).

Please clarify...

 

[avcase]

If minimum arrow length is 24", then it can be considered fixed. And it is fixed if you compare two different bows with different kind of handles. Then, maximum distance between belly side of the handle and string is 24 inches. It is insignificant, what kind of the handle is. And power stroke is always the same (if arrow is 24"). If the handle is very thick toward belly side, then limbs are stressed more compared to forward handle, whereupon the bow can be reflexed more - for same stresses. Lets suppose that brace height is for example 4" (brace height is always distance between string and deepest point of the handle or arrow pass point=).

It is balance between arrow length, power stroke, brace height and limb stresses - and handle thickness is insignificant variable (supposing fixed length).

Please clarify...

The handle depth allows the archer to set the deepest part of the grip at less than the 2” total depth to allow for bow hand clearance, yet leave a bit of a shelf extending rearward to create a small overdraw.  Simply lowering the brace height has its limits. Too low, and the typical self bow loses efficiency, the archer experiences painful string slap, and the arrow Flight becomes very difficult to tune for a finger release.

My own opinion: This handle depth rule has been in place since the beginning, but I have also questioned the value which some of these dimensional limits adds to the competition. The intent was to limit building out the handle depth to create a large overdraw, but I don’t know why this should matter.  I feel the same is true for the minimum 23” arrow length. Why not allow it to be 14” like all the other bow divisions?  For primitive Flight bows, I feel it makes sense to regulate the materials and how they are used.  Fortunately, the Primitive divisions are mostly divorced from traditional or historical design style requirements and I feel allowing different styles to compete head-to-head is a strength.

Alan

[PatM]

If minimum arrow length is 24", then it can be considered fixed. And it is fixed if you compare two different bows with different kind of handles. Then, maximum distance between belly side of the handle and string is 24 inches. It is insignificant, what kind of the handle is. And power stroke is always the same (if arrow is 24"). If the handle is very thick toward belly side, then limbs are stressed more compared to forward handle, whereupon the bow can be reflexed more - for same stresses. Lets suppose that brace height is for example 4" (brace height is always distance between string and deepest point of the handle or arrow pass point=).

It is balance between arrow length, power stroke, brace height and limb stresses - and handle thickness is insignificant variable (supposing fixed length).

Please clarify...

  You need to test that for yourself to see the difference.

[Selfbowman]

Thanks Alan I will shorten the arrow rest on one bow and add a1/4" to another. 23" min arrow length