Hazel longbow, 100# @ 28"

[FilipT]

Slightly related topic for which I don't want open new thread.

Could arrows be made from wooden dowels you can see in stores? I read discussions about them and opinions vary. People say only if the grain runs along the length of the dowel, which makes sense. But then again, when you taper them or make them barreled, grain always ends tapered.
So, yes or no? These are the cheapest solution I could get in order to have warbow arrows.

[JNystrom]

Slightly related topic for which I don't want open new thread.

Could arrows be made from wooden dowels you can see in stores? I read discussions about them and opinions vary. People say only if the grain runs along the length of the dowel, which makes sense. But then again, when you taper them or make them barreled, grain always ends tapered.
So, yes or no? These are the cheapest solution I could get in order to have warbow arrows.

Sure you can. Just make sure at least couple of rings go fully end to end. It might be hard to estimate the spine of dowels in store, but it would be best to have at least 12mm of thickness from where to work down.

Not me, just not my thing.
Old English saying "you don't fatten a pig by weighing it" 
Del

     I do religiously on ELBs, war bows or anything over 100# tend to do better coming in a bit lighter than suggested. I was working on an 85# bow today, with the tiller I was planning on using the suggested mass was 23 oz. The mass was dropping as I tillered so I lowered my target to 70#, bow came out beautiful at 20 oz. I am almost always working with different woods and different weights and the mass program is pretty good at letting me know how my design is working out and what I can expect. It also helps me get it right sometimes on the second attempt. If I start off too narrow I just have to go with what I have but if I start off too wide I can always narrow it as I go.

I agree, the mass princible is a nice tool to see where you are going. I think it suits the most a beginner, but also advanced. I tend to get some confidence from it, when im having the first 100lb+ pulls in the tiller tree, closing my eyes and waiting for the bang.  I got 2 staves roughed which are 40 oz in weight and plenty wide, so only the sky is a limit!

[FilipT]

I would also make a spine tester so I could know what I am working with. Funnily, the mass calculator says that this hazel bow should produce 140#! It is 1010 grams now, but I doubt it is really that strong as I could bend limbs a little by floor tillering and you probably can't do that with high poundage bows.

[JNystrom]

+1 for spine tester. The mass calculator is quite exact, it's just you apparently have a too wide profile. My friend has a 110 pound hickory bow, which weights like 160 pound bow. Its 40mm+ wide, even though the bow could be 30-35mm wide...
This is because adding thickness, is way more weight-efficient, than adding width. Mass principle makes you drive for more efficient, but still safe bow!

[FilipT]

Makes sense, as bow is 40 mm wide. I went for that width because hazel needs to be a bit wider. I won't narrow it down as I like overall proportions.

How is hickory when made into warbow? Does it have handshock and is physically heavy or your friend has a flatbow of that poundage?

[JNystrom]

I don't personally believe in "handshock-woods". You can make a longbow from maple as from ipe. Just make sure the profile is ok (flat belly, round belly etc). The hickory longbow i mentioned, is just a bit wider longbow, with square profile. I have understood that you can make quite heavy warbows from hickory and keep them in decent width even at high poundage. Like with every wood, make sure you make the tips moderately skinny, so you don't think some wood is "handshocky" . Sure it might be sometimes hard with extra hard woods like ipe/osage/syringa etc.

[Badger]

      Years ago I took a dislike for longbows becuase the handshock was so bad. It was the way i was building them. I never get any handshock anymore even shooting very light arrows out of them. Another thing is that regardless of the density of the wood same draw weight bows should weigh about the same. I am working today on a hickory backed cherry 72" long by 50#@28, I just finished boo backed ipe same length and draw weight but they are vastly different in width and thickness yet identical in physical weight.

[mikekeswick]

Yes there are no handshocky woods just excuses for poor work by the bowyer

[FilipT]

I was in the store today and inspected the dowels I talked about above. They have really good grain, there are at least 10 usable dowels. They are made of beech, probably european.
Is that good arrow wood choice?

[JNystrom]

I haven't tried, but sure why not. Many woods make arrows, its just that some woods are a) easier to obtain b) easier to work c) more durable. So as long as they are straight and don't break on first hit, have fun!

[FilipT]

They shouldn't break if I look at the one with the best grain. But as warbow arrows can be torpedo shaped, tapered or barreled, grain always will run off. Will S knows a lot about that. Anyway, I'll try to find the best there is, but first I must see what about feathers and arrow heads.

[FilipT]

I read a lot about spining the warbow arrows and it seems to all point that spining them doesn't matter as same as spining the bows with weights such as #50 for example. Does that make any sense?

The thing is I don't see any plans for spine tester for arrows over 28" of length. Arrows of 28" of shaft length are commonly used for 28" draw and a bit lower than that. Plans state that you must suspend weight at the middle and the distance between points on which arrow is suspended is 26".

But for bow that draws up to 30", you will need longer arrows. Does that mean that you need to suspend arrows on points that are 28" apart? Notice that for 28" arrows, suspension is 26", so 2" less. I used same logic for 30" arrows.

I don't know what to do...

P.S.
I see couple of times mentioned on other forums that guys suspended warbow arrows on usual spine testers and spines all come out wrong.

[Del the cat]

@ FilipT
For a spine tester the distance between the supports doesn't matter too much because you divide the distance by the deflection.
So if you have the supports at a longer distance you get more deflection so it cancels out.
E.G Say 28" and 0.5" deflection gives 28/0.5 = 56
The same arrow at 26" between supports would give 0.464" deflection and thus gives 26/0.464 = 56
This shows that the further apart the supports the more accurate the reading.... but basically it doesn't matter as long as you remain consistent for any particular set of arrows.
So for warbow arrows you might decide to use supports 30" apart, but for flight arrows maybe 23" apart.
Del

[FilipT]

That sounds a bit tricky as I don't know how I would modify support distance when I want. I made today everything except supports. The interesting thing is that I read the following in one of the plans:

The spine tester assumes your arrow is 28" long. The shorter the arrow is, the higher the effective spine, and the longer, the lower. The thumb rule is 5# for every 1". So, if your dynamic spine is 50#, and your arrow is 29" long, your effective spine (accounting only for arrow length) is 45#. If your arrow is 27" long, your effective spine is 55#.

According to this I could make the supports 26" apart and use it for 28,29,30,31, etc. inch arrows except I would add or subtract 5# on measured deflection. Would that make sense instead of making adjustable support spine tester (which I never seen anywhere)?

Also do you use spine testing before putting fletchings and point on or when you have bare shaft of wood?

[willie]

Filip

testing is for static spine, or beam deflection. just a reference point to get you started. you can test anywhere along an arrow or an arrow of any length.

The shorter the arrow is, the higher the effective spine, and the longer, the lower. The thumb rule is 5# for every 1". So, if your dynamic spine is 50#, and your arrow is 29" long, your effective spine (accounting only for arrow length) is 45#. If your arrow is 27" long, your effective spine is 55#.

the info in quotes is about dynamic spine, or how the arrow is supposed to act when you start shooting it.

google  "stu's dynamic spine calculator"  for an excel application.