static tips and levers

[willie]

Once the string hits 90 deg the force stops bending the limbs and the force is pulling along the limb

Yes, that makes sense, without a recurved tip, the string is trying to bend the bow and straighten it at the same time, so to speak.

It is at this point,  where I imagine that the lever would be "torquing" the end of the limb, or using the string force to make the limb bend more.

Is there an optimal angle for the static tip have? So that the effect kicks in as the string angle approaches 90 deg?

[PatM]

Kooi's papers address all of those questions.

[BowEd]

Without knowing or reading koois' findings I would say the angle has to be at least 30 degrees to benefit from any lift off of string or lengthening of the limbs.Bends below that degree are cosmetic so to speak.For looks.Lower the degree the sooner the lift off.I don't think 90 degrees is optimal either as the string will not lift off at full draw unless it's an overdraw.Right at around 50 to 70 degrees on a self long bow seems to me to be the optimum degree for a 28" draw.Many variables and designs.Short bendy handled bows benefit from short retro bent 90 degree bent tips for string angle and close to or even overdraw.
Key I see is getting the most out of the working limb length that you can.Pushing it to it's limit if a person is into that.While retaining reflex and the woods integrity.No set.That's when it'll perform the very best.To do this quality wood is required.Tillering skills being the same.
Straight stiff levers on longer bows benefit performance by being lighter while still giving the smooth draw.Making a wider shorter section of wood work increasing it's performance.Every wood is different as to width of working limb.As you can see I'm a believer and follower of Tim bakers' findings.I've proven it to myself with my own chronograph.
For target shooting and seeing the zip zang speed of a well designed shorter recurve is a lot of fun.For hunting give me a good old straight limbed slightly bent tipped self long bow.I don't need to concentrate as hard shooting those for accuracy.That's just me.For the moment anyway.I know things can change in time though too.Guess you'd call it practice....lol.

[Newindian]

The force of the string is applying a torque on any type of bow. If we assume that a recurved tip is truly static, then it is changing the length of the bow, the angle at which a sting applies it's force ( which is actully tilting the angle of the top end more up and the bottom more down, this is probably countered to some degree by the portion of the string lying along the limb pushing somewhat "down" on the limb), and how much the bow must be stretched to reach brace height. I suspect the most important these for determining brace tension would be the last of the three. 

[bradsmith2010]

Marc said a recurve will outshoot a straight tip by a wide margin,, does anyone know what that is,, about,,

[PatM]

It's about fps and yards of flight.

[Danzn Bar]

It's about fps and yards of flight.

Not really.

[PatM]

More accurate is the only other outshoot variation I know. Is it that?

[willie]

Good question Brad. I suppose all good things come with a trade-off, and hope Marc can weigh in on both sides with the pluses and minuses.

For hunting give me a good old straight limbed slightly bent tipped self long bow.I don't need to concentrate as hard shooting those for accuracy.

Ed, in what way do you find shooting a lesser recurved bow easier? Or are the bows you are comparing just usually different lengths.

[bradsmith2010]

  ok I think sometimes a bow that is shorter and faster,, may be a bit more sensative to hold and release,,
a longer straight bow can be a bit  more forgiving,, I am not sure if that is true in all cases,, for example I have seen back in the day,, the guys shooting wood bows for high scores,,,, were shooting long bows,, and if the speed of a recurve woudl have given them higher score they would have used them,, they shoot well enough to tell the difference,, not sure if that is any proof,, but I do take it into consideration,,
   I have hunted with success with short recurves,, but that was close range,,, if you want me to shoot past 50 yards I will probably just shoot a longbow,,   but dont have any documented proof,, it may just be a personal preference ,, or a myth that is past down from Gurus of the past

[BowEd]

willie....That's just me.I'm sure there are fellas shooting shorter recurves at the target range with accuracy but that's not at a deer in a trees stand.It's a different ball game shooting out of position at an animal on a tiny platform.A good old longer self bow suits me there,and if you check into it I'm not alone.All my friends here shoot long bows for hunting be that they may be FG yet but still long bows.We are all successful most times here with a rig like that.
When a loaded up recurve is drawn out of position for me it's harder to stabilize because of all of the early tension in the draw.The longer bow slowly gets up there but by then I'm letting the arrow fly thus being more accurate.

[willie]

thanks  Ed, (and all others who have taken time to offer constructive comments about their experience)
I thought that you might have been referring to a length preference, and also have a decided liking for bows 65" +

[BowEd]

I generally like bows for ease of draw/accuracy/and hunting all in one of bows that are 60" to even 68" long.To narrow it down  more 62" to 65" is a good happy medium.I'm not alone here either and probably in the majority with those preferences.I did'nt come by those preferences by following the leader.I shot many arrows to come to that conclusion.Like I said that's just me.I'd have to put in a lot more practice and concentration to shoot shorter recurve bows more consistently accurate.By accurate I mean at least 3 arrows within a 4" circle or less.That's good enough for me.

[gfugal]

I would agree that a longer bow is more stable, therefore more accurate. The hypothesis for this I heard was that the longer limbs act kind of like counter balances. Since they have longer moment arms they have greater inertia thus requiring a greater force to tilt. Therefore smaller unstabilizing tilting forces are less likely to throw off the shot.

So it depends on what factor you're talking about. Will longbows on average outshoot short recurve bows? maybe. It depends if you're talking about accuracy. If so I would say yes. If you're talking about speed or flight shooting then you can't say for sure. I would say well-designed recurves shorter than 70" will on average probably outshoot, speed-wise, long bows longer than 70".

[gfugal]

You also have to keep in mind maneuverability. This isn't as important of a factor as it used to be, but the reason the Mongols used such short Asiatic bows was because they can maneuver them better on horseback without long limbs getting in the way. This might play into hunting depending on your style. While most probably would prefer the stability of a long bow others may prefer the maneuverability of a short one.