a little advice from mbg...

[Badger]

        The one thing that is comical about this sport of making bows is that we as a group have so successfully passed on the information of how to do these things that a newcomer can come in and build a bow almost as good as our best efforts in a relatively short time from when he began. We have a group that meets in pasadena once a month for bow makig sessions. After just a few months some of these guys are putting out beauties. My true love will always be a straight stave bow, I don't like too much character and prefer nice clean staves with as small of flaws and knots as I can get away with. My true joy comes in when I hear stories about my bows that I give away. My buddy was out hunting this week and I had given him an 85#@31" hickory long bow about 70# long. One of the 17 yr old kids on the ranch was admiring the bow and mu buddy said if you can draw the bow back I will give it to you. I guess the kid drew the bow back to his ear. My buddy called thinking I was going to be mad, That tickled the heck out of me knowing my bow found a good home on a ranch in the mountains loaded with pig and deer. Even more that the kid seemed like he wanted to throw away his coumpound in favor of the old hickory bow. I have to buy my staves and they are not cheap so I am limited to buying 1 or 2 a month as rule. The bamboo backed bows I can produce for about $12.00 each. This is the only reason I build more boo backed bows than stave bows. I also still build a fair share of board bows. Mostly from maple and red oak. These are great starter bows to learn tillering and tecniques also great to experiment with as they are relatively cheap. Steve

[George Tsoukalas]

Mbg, 35 years for teaching, 2 wonderful daughters and a dear loving wife have made me used to having my ways questioned. It's ok. Justin, if nothing else I am good for comic relief. Jawge

[jamie]

jamie i wish we lived closer cause we'd have a blast

[El Destructo]

Al of you make valid points and it proves that there is no one way to make a bow! What works for you may not for me.
The key ingredient is patience, take your time. If yer a beginner make a simple bow that shoots and don't get caught
up in making it pretty with fancy dye jobs, skins, tip overlays etc. They do nothing for the performance and the critters could care less
if their kilt with a pretty bow or a plain bow. Focus your attention on tiller rather than cosmetics.

I could not have said it better.....a Pretty Wallhanger is not my Cup-O-Tea....give me a Bow that I can take out and crawl through the Brush and climb Trees with....and not have to worry about mussing up the Play Purdies that adorn it.........

[michbowguy]

jawge, like i said i wouldnt be whare i am today if my mouth was bigger than my ears.
jamie 1, i wish you did to buddy,i realy do.

and dear badger, your screen name says it all! lol

chill out my friend.
if you choose to title me as a newcomer...so be it.
i respect my elders as well,so i will not attack on ya.
why do you get so hot headed when i come here and try to shed light on the ways i make bows?
or possibly what i have learned while in the woods?

tell all your bowyer buddies that a newcomer has taken over the forum. lol
it will never happen.
as i will never know your vast knowledge about cast,flightbows and getting peak performance out of said piece of wood.
this i can say truthfully.

can you truthfully question my abilities in the woods to choose a stave?
can you truthfully state that what i bring to the table is cheap nonsense?

badger.
you know what YOU know and learned.

I know what i have learned,and it is probably way less than you as you have many years of making bows than i.

i for one do not fear change, or try to grasp new concepts, or fail to recognize that we as bowyers need to NOT dismiss any new way of doing things. we just would not grow,mentaly and our bows would always be the same.

sorry i called myself a bowyer again.

i see that you help many people out there.
i read your posts quite often,and still will. i like what you have to say.
so why the ill temper twords me/my ways.

some people...like me cannot grasp mass calculation,wood densities,forcedraw curves, that well.

so i chose to take alternate routes to get to a finished bow.
is your way best?
maybe.

is my way wrong?
maybe.
im just not twisting my brain around a calculator,compass,straightlines,calipers,etc.

mbg

[michbowguy]

this is a response from our beloved badger,and my reply from another site concerning the same thing....

[badger]
When you see someone simply pick up a branch, put a string on it and shoot an arrow faster than someone who has spent 20 hours building a poorly designed bow then you realize paying attention to design is important. Not math, not science just learning sound design tecniques based on science and math. I would much rather have a crummy tillered bow that could cast an arrow 200 yards than a perfect tillered bow that could not hit 140 yards with the same arrow. Just being honest here as I see examples of this all the time. Sometimes I feel that guys who care about performance almost have to apologise for it. Thats a crock in my opinion, becomming a bowyer also means making a bow that has some cast to it. If you hand over an old blocky built stave bow to a glass bow shooter to take a couple of shots with he will be amused but likley never shoot another one. If you hand him one to try and he shoots his arrow 12" above his target he is impressed and suddenly becomes interested. Steve


my response[mbg]

i wish it was as simple as picking up a branch.
i was sure some would get a little hot under the collar, probably because they have so many years vested in research and making bows they cant possibly believe someone could make bow just with a branch picked up out of the woods.

i am talking about the skills it takes to CHOOSE the SPECIFIC branch and WHY you would want that one over any else.
also who would hand over a overbuilt blocky handle shocky selfbow to a glass shooter...
POSSIBLY A NEWBIE WANTING TO SHOW OFF HIS VERY FIRST BOW? why pick it apart.praise him brother.if i was handed such a bow i would say good job,and try to give some tips about possibly shooting some heavier shafts to tame it down, or re work the tips.

maybe its just me but i wouldnt have it in me to ask if it cast 200yards.
why appoligise for performance if you did your homework better than the rest..you should be proud. silly.
chill out my friend.

i couldnt tell you if my bows could touch 200 yards, let alone a pooly made one that casts 140,and personaly i wouldnt give to shakes of a rats tail either because ....in the original post i mention flight bows are not my thing. AND I AM NOT BASHING THOSE WHO ENJOY IT.

next time i try to hit an animal [ias if i would try] at 150 yards ill let you know how close i get.

mbg

[michbowguy]

to all who responded to this post...

thanks for the kind words.
my intent was totaly taken out of content.
badger, someday when i become a bowyer i hope i am as good as you.

mbg
budding bowyer.

[El Destructo]

do any of you who do not cut there own staves, or even those wo do.....

know which side of the tree trunk was under some sort of tension whilst it was alive?
if not do you know how to tell?

MBG....down here it is really easy to tell what side is in compression and which is in tension....we have a prevailing S/Westerly Wind that blows all year at from 5-50 miles an hour.....so the N/E side is in Compression....and the S/W side in under tension..because the poor trees grow leaning with the Wind!!

[DanaM]

MBG I'm happy if a bow of mine
1) doesn't break
2) flings an arrow with enough force to take game
3) don't care what others think

With that said we are all on our own journey I admire badger for his technical expertise and his years of research.
I also admire you for wanting to be primitive and do it your way. There is no one way to make a bow just as there is no perfect
bow wood. Sorry osage lovers but its not perfect The reason I quit compounds was the the unrelenting quest for speed and
perfection, primitive archery allows me to be what I want with no preconceived notions. If I want to make a simple functional bow I can,
if I want to make a prettified bow I can, and ifin I want to cut a green branch and fling some sticks I can. I like to shoot just for the fun of it
and I also like to hunt all on my own terms. There is no wrong way to enjoy what we do its a personal choice the main thing is don't lose the excitement you
felt when you flung that first arrow from your first selfbow

[CutNShoot]

Well Michiganbowguy I hope you post the answers to all those questions you asked us , but until you do I'm going to keep making bows like I'm doing em, and try and learn how to make my bows faster and more efficient. .  I was going to make the next bow I have started now without as much center cut like you instructed, but after reading all of what you wrote again, I think there may be a dark horse in your closet.   I read your post thinking you have a little nasty bow chip on your shoulder put there by some of  the other bow makers methods which automatically branded some of the good bow makers as being insufficient. Including me which is probably true since that was bow number 2 I had jsut posted !  I was willing to change my style at that point on a bow or two to show you I had no predigest and I could and would make a bow that shot around the handle.   
The deal is I got to thinking about it.  Unless you just like em that way,why make a bow shoot around the handle more if you can make one shoot around the handle less. Sometimes less is more and I think Badger can prove it with the bows he makes. Also I cant figure out why anyone would want to make a bow that say shot 140 fps if you can figure out that it might be made better if you take a little more wood off what looks like a perfect bow, drop it from 50 to 48 lb's  pull and make it shoot 160 170 instead. Also why you would bash the guy that is smart enough to do it and has made thousands of bows unless there is a horse of a different color in your closet. Also I dont think Badger was saying your bows shot slow I think what he  presented was they may be made to be better.  So here is what Im going to do.  I'm going to make all kinds of bows and I'm going to make em like I want to, and make a lot of bad mistakes and my bow's probably aren't as good as yours but I'm going to have A lot fun doing it and not get rapped up in some dramatic cry to KISS (the last abreiavation for the word is the one that bothers me) the word is STUPID which  I dont see any reason in staying that way more that once. I never was lucky enough to be trained by on of those old masters and frankly after reading your post I think you may have missed the most important part of their training. THE SEASONS CHANGE, AND THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE DIFFERENT AND WAY BETTER THAN YOU SO YOU MAY AS WELL GET OVER IT GET OVER IT                   
                 Just remember I don't sell em, I can barely give em away !!

[michbowguy]

i believe you are all right.

and i want to apoligize to badger publicly as i did not understand his post.

i have no chip on my shoulder, and im probably one of the nicest uguly guys youll ever meet!

i just wanted to sow some "other" ways.

that is all. im not here to argue.
can you all forgive the big guy or what.

 
the only chips that are on my shoulder is that of bow scrapings 

mbg. out.

[Badger]

MBG, hey guy no need to apologise, having different opinions is fine. Yours is every bit as valid as mine is. Tim Baker and I argue constantly but I still consider him a close bow making comrad. I like it when we all express our own opinions. Steve

[CutNShoot]

I seem to always put my foot in the wrong place.   

[George Tsoukalas]

mbg, this is what we do here. Knock down; drag out fights about this and that. When we are done, this and that is still this and that as it has been for millennia with a few improvements and modifications or so we think. This thing we call the internet is a marvelous invention allowing me to communicate with others who are like minded. Often times these others are clear across the continent. It's an awfully long walk to Michigan, mbg. But it has been wonderful talking to you. Those of us who love wooden bows (or bows not  so wooden but close enough) know that in the final analysis that love transcends distance and time. I'd like to think a bowyer from another state or country would pick up one of my bows and smile and may be shake his head. I'd like to think that a bowyer  from a time long ago, perhaps from a pre Columbian Eastern Woodland tribe, would pick up one of my bows and nod his head approvingly, hunt with it and kill supper. That is my wish. Jawge

[CutNShoot]

and im probably one of the nicest ugly guys you'll ever meet! Grin
 
Man have you seen my pic??  You be way more handsome compared to me if that is any consolation. 

 You know what that guy up in AK says about  all that ugly business. 

Quote.

If the women don't find ya handsome they sure better find ya handy!!!!!

My wife says I better get busy workin on sumpthin with my hands pretty quick.
I think she means it too!
She once said I could scare a hungry wolf off a fresh killed elk carcase.   
I gota get rid of that woman one of these days!!