Nock point/limb balance

[Tuomo]

Very good discussion!

Again, I think that a lot of disagreements relates to the fact that terms are undefined. Dws has a good reasoning but, what for example term "balanced" means? Is it balanced with limb bending, force, momentum, limbs kinetic energy, limb strain, limb length or what? Without defining terms, the agreement is very difficult to reach.

This discussion relates to limb timing and a little to handshock. Limb timing (and related term) requires exact definitions to be continued. Hand shock is more simple, thus I think that it is still a mystery, beacause the exact reasons are not known. Of course, limb tip mass and so on but there are still more.

Sometimes I think I nailed a bow, but just can't seem to figure out why it's not shooting perfectly, and other times they just do. When you make and shoot a lot of bows, you really start to feel and notice the small things.

Wizardgoat said it, one bow shoots just great but second bow don't, and reasons are not evident. That is sometimes disturbing. For example, why arc tillered longbows have usually a lot of hand shock, although tiller ("balance") is good and tips are tiny? And so on. There are many unsolved mysteries of primitive archery and bows!

[Badger]

  DWS, I agree they need to be Balanced for the sake of the arrow. I think we disagree on the optimum balance point. I say the tension on the limbs will equal out but I don't say it will be a good outcome if limbs are not balanced. If the limbs are not closely balanced the arrow won't return level to the rest area.

  I usually tiller for split finger because I feel it is the best compromise making the bow more balanced and steady on the draw allowing for better aiming. It is plenty close enough for a minor nock height adjustment for good flight. I will likely start tillering my flight bows where I will hold them at the arrow rest and pull straight down from the arrow rest because accuracy is not as important and I am hoping for a little cleaner flight there.

  As for handshock I thin we universally agree that too much mass in out limbs causes shock. I think shock also has more opportunity to exist in bows with more working limb simply because there is more limb to vibrate. As for tiller shape, I am also convinced the the elliptical tiller allows the inner potions of the limbs to mostly finish their job before hitting brace height. Pyramid bows with round tiller seem to be shock free which contradicts this  but I suspect that they also tend to unwind from inside to outside but not really sure.

[Dances with squirrels]

Tuomo, how would you know for certain limb balance is good and not the cause of the handshock? I don't trust folks' assessments if they assume balance in their bows by tillering to a predetermined measurement at brace. I also don't trust their 'feel' for balance at full draw, since too many have to adjust the height of the nock point to achieve good arrow flight afterwards.

I may have been guilty on occasion of using the term 'balance' without quantifying it with enough adjectives just because I HAVE clarified it so many times here that I begin to assume folks know what I'm talking about. But by relative limb balance, it means the limbs bend so that, when the bow and string is held as when shot by the archer(that's the relative part), the arrow nock comes straight back, perpendicular to the shelf/handle... neither drawn upward or downward by a limb acting stronger than its counterpart.

Also related to these discussions... there's a static balance point, where the bow balances without tension on the string, and a dynamic balance point, where the bow balances at full draw in the archer's hands at full draw.

[Dances with squirrels]

sorry for the redundancy 

[Dances with squirrels]

Pearly, don't worry, you'll get what you got coming... and then some... and I'm not playing mad scientist... more like obsessed. You should see the carnage in and behind the shop right now 

I spent 5 hours yesterday driving looking for osage after work. You should see the size of the behemoth hedge trees I found... too hot to tackle... biding my time.