is the broadhead for blowguns a new innovation?

[ekalavya]

there is not so much written about blowgun darts ....
it seems to me , when possible they were poisoned and only some first nations
used them unpoisoned for the hunt of small game like rabbits , squirrels , birds ...

Nowadays however ... means the 20th/21th century some kind of broadheads have been used.

i estimated the weight for a blowgun dart to be 50 grain, however it might be that historically
only 30 grain darts have been used.
The "fletching" with thistle fiber, cotton, fur and so on ... causes FOC problems ....
However FOC seems to be largely ignored .... maybe because a really tiny and sharp point
was considered more important.

I also wondered why there are no spliced blowgun darts to get FOC or blowgun darts
made of bone.
Also i do not know if fire hardened tips/points are historical. Attempts to harden the points/tips
probably where not thought to be necessary, because probably the wood used seemed to be
sufficient hard.

Also except for some modern innovations and the fukiya ... blowgun darts pretty much
look like large thick needles with a strange "fletching".

It also seems to me that blowgun darts were highly optimized for air resistance ...
those darts which do not spin so much in flight fly further.

Today I tested elder(berry) pith "fletched" darts , paper cone darts and wool fletched darts
and i was surprised that the pith fletched were comparable in distance with the paper cones.
I recognized that i could further optimize the wool fletching. Binding it tighter to the shaft and
reducing the fiber length.

My explanation why "broadheads" for blowgun darts were rarely used is that it makes
the penetration area larger, that "broadheads" may cause more spin and so more air resistance.

[Dakota Kid]

I made up a bunch of 9" bamboo skewer darts. I used modified exact-o blades for the head.  The cone was paper coated in CA glue. The largest animal I harvested with it was an adult rabbit. A plain needle dart is only good for target shooting. Unless it's poisoned. I'm not sure how I feel about poison. I'd be nervous I'd jab myself by accident. Curare is no joke.

[Zuma]

  Good post ekelvaya.
Not much of a blowgun mechanic but have always had a interest.
What's FOG. What I see as a very diffult problem to optimize
is (fletching / diaphragm). (air force behind the dart vs stability and
resistance in flight) ?? In otherwords it would be cool to leave the diaphragm
in the gun and get it off the dart? Just minimum fletching.
The point or tip would be more of an accuracy problem, I would guess.
Most accounts of use are with poison that I know about.
It would be interesting to see how it would go with a stone tipped dart.
Zuma

[stickbender]

   
     The Cherokee, darts, were made of hickory, and other woods, and were anywhere from 12-14 inches or so.  There is historical reports of the Cherokees taking game as large as Racoons.  With a heavier dart, you could use a broad head, small, but sharp.  I have flattened out the little steel darts, for the commercial blow guns, and they penetrate quite well.  They are not super wide, and are very sharp, and are mainly leaf shaped.  I don't know if the Cherokees, used any form of broad head, but again, there is historical records, of them shooting squirrels, in the eye, and killing rabbits out from quite a distance, I believe it was like 50 yds. or so, or maybe even more.  But the first Europeans were quite impressed by the skill of the Indians, and their blow guns, and darts.
                                    Wayne

[ekalavya]

Well, Dakota Kid proved again it is possible ....
however the Cherokee did not use paper cones

@stickbender

50 yards really ? the problem is until now I have not seen a Cherokee dart with a broadhead ....

i read the lethal range was below 20 yards ....

@all

it seems to me that the North American 1st nation darts did not kill by blood loss , but by penetrating
critical or lethal spots like the brain through the eye or the heart or others ...
could be the wooden dart got damaged anyway and the damaged dart made the injury deadlier

[ekalavya]

i did some youtube research ... and it seems the rabbits killed there were not shot with broadheads ...

what i question myself now ... is how deep need the darts penetrate to be lethal ?

i shot bamboo skewers through an apple .... but usual from a distance the penetration depth
is around 2" and probably less with a broadhead ....

the Jakaltek (sorry if misspelled) used to kill birds with clay pellets and thus no penetration
at all , although lethal ....

it seems also hard to believe that the efficiency of blowguns is only around 10% and 90%
are wasted for friction, air resistance and so on ....
thus a simple handy rubber slingshot is like a revolution with an estimated efficiency of 40%
or so
Germany has a low a 7 joule limitation for slingshots (just read somewhere)

7 joule sling shot ... 2.8 joule for the projectile/stone
7 joule blowgun ( ~ 0.62" diameter , 6' long)  ... 0.7 joule for the dart

actually killing a rabbit with a blowgun means to kill him with a projectile that
has less than one joule of energy at leaving the pipe

don't know how the Cherokee succeeded with just 0.5" diameter and just 6' or probably
7' length ...

[Zuma]

How about a terrestrial Hawaiian sling?
Zuma

[ekalavya]

@Zuma

I had to look it up in the wiki , although i think the answer would be ...
energy stored in a rubber band , .... no atmospheric pressure to overcome ...
so in any case it is far more efficient than a blowgun .....
(concerning energy efficiency)

<back to the blowgun>

a broadhead isn't a problem if you have enough energy .... but if there's  so little
you probably want the projectile as thin as a fine needle or syringe to get maximum penetration depth

there is probably a limit to broadhead use and i think it's something around 1 joule and
surely more than 0.8 joule for the projectile energy ...
( the data calculated from 0.62" dm 7' long blowguns)

lungs can hold six or five litres of pressurized air at 1.2 bar means around
700 joule of energy ... however to blow it through the tube only 54 joule are
needed .... so a loss of around 92% ... and of that only 0.9 joule get into the projectile
... which is less than 1.7 % ... or around 0.13% of the energy stored in the lungs

however this small amount of energy is still enough for a small and thin metal broadhead
, which only needs to be razor sharp or cutter blade sharp .... to be used effectivly

i have no data for glass , bone or wooden broadheads for blowguns ... nor any reports
someone was hunting with them
i can imagine that a real tiny heartwood broadhead would be difficult to sharpen and
i think it would also require some minium thickness ...
i heard of bamboo blades or knives .... but no reports or desriptions of heartwood blades
or knives ... which does not mean they are not feasible ...

sorry , for that to come , but i think a broadhead is comparable to a two bladed triangular
knife or dagger

[Dakota Kid]

I recently met a professor who was writing a paper on the use of arrow and dart poisons by Native Americans. I was unaware that this even occurred, but apparently there is evidence to support his claim. I'm hoping to get a copy when he finishes it. The poisons were created the same way South American Natives made curare. Large quantities of toxic plants were steeped in large pots. The liquid was then boiled down and concentrated into a tar or resin. The tar was then applied to the front of the flute in the stone point or to notches cut in the front of the arrow shaft right behind the point.

I don't know which Native tribes practiced these techniques but, it could explain lethality at distances in excess of 20 yards.

[ekalavya]

Just to make this thread a little less theoretical I show some darts all shot with a 120 cm long
and 14 mm (in diameter)  plastic tube bought for 20 cent or so.
The darts are all bamboo skewers and those without broadhead are tapered for more penetration.
All 2 without broadhead penetrate the 3cm styrofoam from a distance of around 6 m.
One broadhead is made from a crown cork or metal bottle stopper and although not specially
sharpened is somehow useful ... however like all broadhead darts here, it also failed to shot
through the styrofoam.

I apologise for the horrible "fletching" some of those darts have.

@Dakota ...

of course, poison makes a tiny blowgun dart an effective weapon ....
and of course there are plants and animals who produce suitable poison in North America

[DC]

We used to make blowguns at work(when we weren't slaving feverously ). We used 3/4" electrical conduit about 8' long. We made the darts out old artist paint brushes with the ferrule forward and a paper cone for fletching. Anyway, I was always amazed at the distance and power that these things had. For some reason I could shoot them farther than anyone else(full of hot air, I guess) and could reach close to 200 feet on a good day. A 10" long brush would almost go though a heavy re-inforced cardboard box. I have no doubt that they would do extreme damage to a rabbit. All that said, the ancients didn't have conduit and they used fluff instead of paper. I'm amazed that they could get the inside of a cane or whatever smooth enough so the fluff wouldn't snag on the way through. I'm sure that if I was to try and make one using ancient stuff that I wouldn't even be able to blow a dart though it. Whenever I try to imagine doing something the old way I always seem to run into something that stymies me. I'm rambling.

[Dakota Kid]

Longer thinner broadheads will greatly improve your penetration. The ones that worked best for me were 3/8" wide and 1" long shot from a 1/2" diameter blowgun. I think the effectiveness of the razor/lithic dart is better if pass through is not achieved. The internal damage done from the animal's movement after the shot is sometime greater than the damage from the shot itself.  I'm betting a long wire dart where the front half is somewhat flattened and sharpened would just about cut the rabbit in half when it tried to run away. Plus longer darts catch on the surrounding brush slowing the animal down, sometimes to the point where you may be able to finish it off by hand/club.   

I've seen shots to the chest cavity, the head, and even through the eyes with normal wire darts that weren't lethal. A cutting head or poison would be the only way I see the blowgun as a worth while hunting weapon. On a small enough animal/bird I could see a wire dart causing immobility either by the length of the dart or by "pinning" it to a tree. I finishing blow would still be required though.

[ekalavya]

@Dakota.

You made a good point there "The internal damage done from the animal's movement after the shot is sometime greater than the damage from the shot itself."
This seems to be trick ... the animals does the lethal damage itself through its instinct like the
boar who is running into the spear ...
For the broadhead ... you gave me the plans and it is up to me to try it out ... as for anyone who
did not do it yet

@DC

at the measure given by you I wonder how you managed to blow through that ....
usual if the blowgun is over your optimum volume it is less efficient and also if it is bending
by gravity ....
i myself have a 106cm ( around 42") and 18 mm ( little less than 3/4") tube and yes, it works
fine with paper cones .... but i doubt it would do so with a fluff or more traditional "fletching"

a wool string (picture in last post) simply coiled around and securely fixed works fine
for 1/2" diameter ... wool string length around from left to right hand both at maxium
distance (~ 6')

[DC]

It may have worked better if it was shorter, we just used what was leaning against the wall.

[ekalavya]

@Dakota

concerning a possible dart poison for the northern hemisphere .... two possible candidates
came to my eye ... the first is nicotine extracted by hot or cooking water from ordinary dry tobacco
leaves and the second is aconitine which is around ten times more poisonous

however the extraction or concentration of almost pure aconitine seems to be more difficult
but not impossible .... aconitine is a poison found in various plants of the species aconitium
and known by quite a couple of english names like wolfsbane, monkshood and so on ...

aconitine was used as a dart poison , but for a rabbit size animal probably tobacco would
two ... according to wiki the nicotine content of one cigarette is around 12 mg which definitly
would be over LD50 for a dog , so i guess 24 mg or two cigarettes would do

it would be around a third of a grain of weight or not much for a 25 or 30 grain dart ...

although it would be theoretically possible i heard of no reports of nicotine being used
as a dart poison