Author Topic: Tony Baker a Clovis Geniuses Imo lol  (Read 2806 times)

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Offline Zuma

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Tony Baker a Clovis Geniuses Imo lol
« on: November 09, 2015, 07:31:59 pm »
Here is just one of many, many of Tony's papers.
I include the graph as a means of enticement.
The paper may have Archie words describing two camps
but that is all it is. I have never read papers so well prepared
and as flexible to include and eliminate current findings
when they (make sense).
I like this guy and what he says. To bad we lost him in his prime.
Comments please.
Zuma
The Clovis First/ Pre-Clovis Problem: 2004 Revisit
www.ele.net/art_folsom/pre-clovis_2004/preclovis2004.htm  Similarto The Clovis First/ Pre-Clovis Problem: 2004 Revisit
Sep 28, 2004 ... Tony Baker ... During this same period, the number of Clovis sites and C-14 dates have ..... 1979, The Radiocarbon Dates of Taima-Taima.

Clovis First / Pre-Clovis Problem
Revisited 2004
Tony Baker
September 15, 2004

It doesn't look like the chart will upload so click the link and learn
Figure 3

I did my best with the link.
Any help appreciated
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 07:36:16 pm by Zuma »
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

Offline le0n

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Offline Zuma

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Re: Tony Baker a Clovis Geniuses Imo lol
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 08:32:29 pm »
Wow don't get ancient like this old fart. :o
Technology will sneak up behind you and woop your Butt.. :(
Thanks leOn
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

AncientTech

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Re: Tony Baker a Clovis Geniuses Imo lol
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 06:53:11 am »
Regarding El Jobo, Joshua Ream - moderator of Arrowheadology forum - has possibly the best collection of El Jobo on the planet.  He hand picks El Jobo in Venezuela, off of sites. 

If you look closely at all of his El Jobo points, they are made from a very coarse grained material that almost resembles quartzite.  I have not seen a thin finely made El Jobo, such as the basalt point found at MonteVerde.

That being said, if you look at the fluted fishtail points, they tend to be made of very fine grained cherts, and other such stones.  In one case, I ran across studies of the use wear patterns of fluted fishtail points.  And, it appears that they were re-flaked - just as Clovis was resharpened - while being worked down to nubs.

In the case of the El Jobo types of points, it appears that they were used to penetrate, and to kill.  But, one would not need a broad bifacial head, with curved edges, simply to penetrate and to kill.

The problem that I have with views based solely on "morphology" (i.e. thick bodied versus thin bodied), is that what is not oftentimes taken into account is what the points were used for, and from what materials the points were made.

Hypothetically speaking, what if the materials that El Jobo points were made from, were so coarse that they never made good cutting implements, and could never be thinned very well?  Then, why not use the materials to make bipointed penetrating killers, with stout bodies? 

And, what if the materials that fluted fishtail points were made from did provide an excellent cutting edge?  Then, why not make hafted fluted fishtails, that could be resharpened over and over again, until only a nub was left?  If this route was taken, then wouldn't broadly curved edges lend itself to longer knife function, and longer use?

As I said, I have yet to see an El Jobo point made from a non-crude material.  And, I have yet to see a fluted fishtail made from really cruddy stone, like the El Jobo points are made from.

Beyond that, modern day images of tribal people butchering elephants and such show people hacking away at the carcasses with picks, and very large steel implements that can be wielded with two hands.  So, how long would it take a person to use a small Clovis/fishtail knife to cut up an elephant?  Lol.  It is almost unimaginable.  But, how do we know that that is how the tool was being used? 

I think there is a possibility that the tools were hafted, used on spears, but then detached and used as indirect percussion cutters.  In other words, the early hunter could have held the tool in one hand, and rapped the back of the tool with a piece of wood, while cutting through the meat.  The blows would generate a series of short bursts of movement, with greater power than can be generated via hand held pressure.  When the tools became dull, they could have been re-chipped while in the haft.  If a tool was used in this manner, and a bone was ever struck, then it could have produced some "impact damage" to the tool. 

   

 

Offline Zuma

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Re: Tony Baker a Clovis Geniuses Imo lol
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 09:02:07 am »
"The problem that I have with views based solely on "morphology" (i.e. thick bodied versus thin bodied), is that what is not oftentimes taken into account is what the points were used for, and from what materials the points were made."


Well, the information that Tony presents indicates to me that something persuaded
the folks to abandon the El Jobo and all other socket type points in favor of the
wider thinner bifaces that are found stuck clear into elephant bones. I doubt they were
stabbed in like a knife. Large flakes make better butchering tools anyway.
Perhaps folks that developed from new world monkeys made el jobo and Clovis folks came along and ate there lunch. No matter for something to morph it must change and that is defiantly apparent. I want to find and post Tony's Clovis C14 dates if I can find them.
thanks for the reply and interest Ben
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.

AncientTech

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Re: Tony Baker a Clovis Geniuses Imo lol
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2015, 07:26:26 am »
Here are some El Jobo points.  Look at the grain of the stone:

http://www.arrowheadology.com/forums/knapping-primitive-technology/6741-jobo-points-south-america-my-collection.html

It is nothing like the type of stone, and flaking, that normally characterize fluted fishtails.

Offline caveman2533

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Re: Tony Baker a Clovis Geniuses Imo lol
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 08:21:55 am »
Looks like a good grade of quartzite. Nice material.

Offline Zuma

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Re: Tony Baker a Clovis Geniuses Imo lol
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 08:59:02 am »
One big problem in the dating of Clovis is the new haranging
about it >:(  --so many say the Clovis era only lasted 300 years.
I just don't buy that. I am sure it lasted longer.
Now I have mixed feelings about C14 dating   :-\ but if you look at
Tony's chart the era spans 5 THOUSAND years. ???
And if you consider El Jobo as actually the same folks that just
morphed their technology into Clovis technoligies add another
 1,200years.
Zuma
If you are a good detective the past is at your feet. The future belongs to Faith.