Photos: Logical Reason for employing controlled overshot, in opposite edge thin

[AncientTech]

I apologize for not having time to get back to some of the other responses.  I have been very busy in the fluted point factory. 

The title should read:  "Logical Reason for Employing Controlled Overshot, in Opposite Edge Thinning"

(Disclaimer:  The purpose of this thread is not to show a "how to" tutorial, on how to produce overshots.  If a person reads the text that accompanies the photos, the purpose will be seen to follow the title.  Also, Zuma probably would not want this information in his other thread.  For this reason it is not included in his other thread, on overshot.  Also, this thread does not raise the question as to whether controlled overshot was employed, by Clovis knappers.  Thus, it is not in one of the previous threads.  This thread simply shows the logic in employing controlled overshot, as a means of thinning opposite edges, when opposite edges are thick, and not directly unworkable.  In essence, I want to show a logical reason as to why a knapper may have had the intent to use an overshot/coast-to-coast flaking technology.  This thread is about a hypothetical reason for intent.)

Okay, here is my edge.  How should I thin it?  The stone is raw, and acutely hard.  If I try to use a hammerstone, it would be very hard to break.  Plus, hammerstone percussion could produce internal shatter, in the square edges.  If I try to use a baton, it might not do anything, because the stone is profanely hard, and in a raw state.  If I try to use a pressure flaker, I cannot generate enough strength to remove a flake.  So, how am I going to thin it?



Here is my solution to the problem: 

I am going to used tine-based flaking to work from the thinner opposite edge, so as to remove flakes that are designed to thicken as they travel.  By doing this, I can remove thicker flakes, while working off of the thinner edge, which will effectually thin the thicker opposite edge.



Here is one such flake.  The initiation is quite thin, but the far edge of the removal is thicker:



Here is the flake scar, after removal:


Now, the "bad" side is a little thinner:



Here is the thin edge, where I am shooting flakes from:



Here is the thick edge, that is getting thinner, from far side removals:

 

Now, after some very unusual prep work, I take a removal off the thick edge, heading towards the thin edge:











Now, I will take off another removal from the thick edge, heading towards the thin edge.  Here is the leftover delta:



Here is my thick edge, after the removal of the delta:



Now, I am going to take off another removal heading from the thick edge, back to the thin edge:





















(As a matter of intentionality, the preparations and modifications employed in preparing for the previous outrepasse flake, were not the same as the preparations and modifications employed, in preparing for the previous multiple coast to coast flakes.  For some, knowing this could be a prerequisite needed prior to considering this subject, from the standpoint of "intent".) 

So, as I have shown here, the flaking technology that produces overshot flaking, coast to coast flaking, and regular flaking, can be used to thin opposite edges, when the far side is too rough, and thick, to work.  Once the thicker edge has been thinned enough, then it can be worked off of, too.

Here is another example.  The opposite edge was too thick, and irregular, to pressure flake.  Since the stone is raw, and finely grained (raw agatized coral?), it would not have responded well to hammerstone percussion. 

So, I used tine-based flaking, to remove an outrepasse, from the far side, while taking off the thick, opposite edge in the process (middle segment of the flake is missing, probably due to shatter). 



Again, this thread is not about whether or not Clovis knappers intentionally employed outrepasse flaking.  This thread is about the logical reason for employing late stage, tine-based outrepasse flaking, when distant surfaces - and sometimes even opposite edges - are overly thick, while the stone is raw, and not very susceptible to other methods of flintknapping.

P.S.  A researcher has responded to this post, and pointed out a parallel to "PSE" paleo end scraper blanks, in terms of generating flakes that are designed to thicken, as they approach the opposite edge, with the greatest thickness involving the curl around the far edge.     



   

[JoJoDapyro]

Awesome. And now due to showing photos of what it does, but not how to do it, you have wasted my time, as well as your own. Look, here is a home made Ishi stick. It works well, you can make one too. But I'm not going to help you with the how to!

[AncientTech]

The intent of the post was not a "how to".  The intent is to show a logical reason as to "why" a person - possibly an ancient knapper - would have wanted to employ overshot technology, at relatively late stages (post hammerstone stages), in bifacial reduction. 

Technically, this could have fit into another thread.  But, since it contains examples of modern tine-made overshots, people may not have wanted it in the other thread.

Again, this thread is to show "why" a knapper - presumably an ancient knapper - could have wanted to employ controlled overshot technology, or to be more specific an umbrella technology that can be used to produce overshot, coast to coast, and regular flaking.

[Tower]

You have some very nice overshots.  I know the archaeological record proves overshots were made.  I have found some paleo points that show overshot scars, but not all. .  Wether they were intentional or accidental I do not know.  I do not like making overshots in the late stages,because I loose too much width.  In primary shaping & thinning they can be helpful. I think it was just the knappers skill & preference.   I Prefer a properly prepared platform . Two opposing flakes on the same side. 
I have asked once & I will ask again if it would be possible to watch a video of your overshot process.

[mullet]

 I think the whole point to Joe's response is these post are worthless unless you like looking at rocks and the same old flakes. "0" learning factor.

 And, you sucked me in to this, too. I'm beginning to think,, no I really think that you like looking at your pictures, and reading your ramblings, because so far everything you have posted has been the same, a big mystery.

 Tower was right, knap on.

I was typing the same time you were, Don.

[Ghost Knapper]

I see what JoJo saw. Tons of pictures and no reason to read the text in the post. Sorta like crying wolf. After much time of posting how you flake with absolute refusal to even attempt to show the technique.  This post was viewed just like the others my thought was "he is at it again". A how to without any how to.

So while yes this post is more of a "why" it could of been used, I may feel like a few others on here. I don't care anymore (for these posts).

Others asked me to explain the process on how I photograph the way I do. I could of viewed the technique as a "trade secret" and simply said that I do not wish to share the technique. I also could of explained that I use expensive equipment and photoshop to complete the task, which would of kept it out of reach for the majority of the posters on here. But instead not only did I show how I do it, but I also went and showed how others could do it as well with stuff just laying around the house. Now weather or not anyone attempted to try it I may not know but I am glad I took the time to explain it.

I see the point of this post, I think that it showed a way to remove material from the opposite side of the biface from which it was struck. At times with percussion, an existing edge is not appropriate to strike due to the "bluntness/squareness" of that edge and it must be attacked from either side of that area or from the opposite side.

No one is going to think any less of these posts if you share how your are doing it, in fact I think it would open many more doors. Sometimes in order to keep something you got to give it away.

[turbo]

Well put 'ghost' and thanks again for the photo tutorial. If nothing else I think he'd be easy to spot at a knap-in; just look for the knapper behind the curtain.

Why am I still here?!!

[caveman2533]

Nicely done!!  Now follow what Phil would have done and teach someone how you did it. Phil was one of the most generous knappers I know, he would not hesitate to show someone how to do something. I believe he would be disappointed with you for not showing what you know.

[Dalton Knapper]

You are using a tine as a punch, aren't you? I like the results. I may have to give that a try myself, but I don't really care about overshot flakes and I can work through square edges just fine. I just like those flake scars. I'd imagine you are setting the preform/blank on some type of pad, or anvil, under your foot and using the tine as a punch (indirect percussion), but experimentation should reveal how this works. I do wonder how well it works in late stage flake removal though because I bet the rock takes a real wallop from the deepness of those flake scars on the edges.

[JoJoDapyro]

I am fairly certain that it wouldn't have taken as many photos as it did to make me understand why you do it. Why doesn't help me. How helps. I am eager to learn, but I am seeing WHY you have been removed from other sites.

[JW_Halverson]

Ok, so it is clear that you are simply refusing to reveal the HOW TO.  Pure and simply REFUSING, despite the numerous times people have freely given you the soapbox.   

So.  Why are you still coming here to post?  Can you answer that for yourself?

[turbo]

Let me just say this (yes, I'm still here…lol); @Ben- while I do appreciate your pictures (and they're well taken) you're consistently avoiding the 'how to' part and that's what frustrates us. Like I said before and as Steve said of your mentor; most knappers are generous w/ the 'how to' part and that spurs more experimentation, healthy discussion, etc.

There are already so few people into abo reproduction so why alienate more? The more people in the game the closer we can possibly get to the 'how to' of the ancients. Of course I have a feeling we'll be chasing them indefinitely but that's the fun part of the journey.

I want to see your technique and give it a spin. I have an idea on how you're doing it but would like to have you show us. Will you please consider that?! 

[wizardgoat]

I lurk in the flint knapping section to learn. It's a pretty tough craft to figure out, and I greatly appreciate the guys who willingly share their knowledge.
I don't learn anything from your posts, and I echo everyone's frustrations.
Why are you so intent on protecting your knowledge?
Your beginning to alienate yourself from a very generous and friendly site.
I'll share my bow making knowledge will anyone willing and anxious to learn, if I didn't, what kind of guy would that make me?

[son of massey]

To be fair, the overshot technology argument seemed to be about whether it was a viable method or not-or intentional/unintentional. It looks like he has a method to intentional produce overshots (and I would also like to know how it was done) but the original argument seemed to be, to some degree, whether it could be done. It looks like it can. If that argument is put to bed, perhaps the how can be addressed instead of the why?
SOM

[JoJoDapyro]

Most of the time I am going to at the devils advocate. I know why you do it. It makes perfect sense. What I don't understand is how. I'm very new to the knapping game. Basically self taught. I have major issues with thinning and reduction. I create steps and break a lot of stone. Learning a new technique could help me to stop wasting so much material. Its hard to come by here in Utah.