The heart of the matter

[Stringman]

 Finally some worthwhile conversation on the subject.

[Zuma]

Here are a few lines about what I think is the start of all this Outrepasse and Solutrean/Clovis nonsense.
 With out something to connect Clovis and Solutrean (outrepasse) the connection would be mute. Remember, publish or die.

 According to Bruce Bradley "François Bordes spent a whole semester at U of A in spring 1970 and he and I spent most every spare moment knapping in a little room on the ground floor of the Anthro building.  François invited me to participate in his middle paleolithic excavations in SW France that summer and I spent several glorious months digging in 50,000 year old sites, knapping incredible flint (mostly Bergerac), don't know why it was, but he and I hit it off extremely well

Flintknapping Hall Of Fame, Flintknapper François Bordes

Zuma

[turbo]

To bad I can't watch the video. So maybe you could
answer a few questions about it.
What does he start with? A round nodule. What material?
Does he make Clovis points with the same technique?
 I have no doubt that if you are adapt enough to create
overshot flakes at will, you are cool.
Although I doubt that less than 10 percent  of all
 knappers past and present can with any consistancy.
I'd like to see a show of hands here of the folks that can
prepare a platform on a Clovis type core and strike 2out of 20
overshot flakes. I bet Ben can't lol
Obsidian and quality cherts like Strings should be pretty simple.
I still contend that in abo projectile manufacture, overshot was the result
of going for the prize and comming up a little short. (loosing width)
I create overshots all the time. Mosty on large cobble reduction or difficult preforms. Never intentional
Zuma

He starts w/ a variety of materials; mostly raw uncooked Texas material and he does make Clovis points using just overshots and a hammerstone. One of his goals in this project was to explain why a lot of Clovis points had 'nubs' left and why that may be. The nubs are basically isolated platforms which are not unlike fluting nipples. He surmises these nubs or isolated platforms would be used in the future to knock off tool flakes. As far as getting consistent overshots, they can be done if the platform is isolated correctly and the force/support is right. Lucas admitted he had lots of failures early in the project but learned from them.

As 'caveman' said the blade was more like a core producing tool flakes and the overshots create a sharp butchering edge. They did not necessarily sit down to knock out a Clovis point in one sitting like modern knappers but did it in stages.

[Zuma]

 
Thanks turbo
Great explanation. I sure want to see that vid now.
I totally believe in isolated platform ever since I started hand fluting.
What would be really cool to find out is--
What the overshot flake ratio is in Clovis quarry debris and compare it to
say broad spear debitage?

I am not sure I follow this correctly.

"One of his goals in this project was to explain why a lot of Clovis points had 'nubs' left and why that may be. The nubs are basically isolated platforms which are not unlike fluting nipples. He surmises these nubs or isolated platforms would be used in the future to knock off tool flakes."

Does this mean they would make tool flakes from finished Clovis points?
Thanks Zuma

[turbo]

Thanks turbo
Great explanation. I sure want to see that vid now.
I totally believe in isolated platform ever since I started hand fluting.
What would be really cool to find out is--
What the overshot flake ratio is in Clovis quarry debris and compare it to
say broad spear debitage?

I am not sure I follow this correctly.

"One of his goals in this project was to explain why a lot of Clovis points had 'nubs' left and why that may be. The nubs are basically isolated platforms which are not unlike fluting nipples. He surmises these nubs or isolated platforms would be used in the future to knock off tool flakes."

Does this mean they would make tool flakes from finished Clovis points?
Thanks Zuma

No problem, it's a four part video series but well worth watching. Marty Reuter also has some great Clovis videos using punches and hammerstones ('flintknappingtips' on Youtube). I really appreciate the work knappers like them are doing and hope the professional community is watching too. I know the archaeologist in me is.   

As for your question, yes, he surmises they would continue to knock off flakes throughout the life of the blade.

[caveman2533]

Technically they are not finished points as you and I think of them. What he is referring to is the large wenatchee types that have the nubs and as the life of the biface continues there are flakes taken as the biface is reduced to a finished point, but not all in one sitting. meaning the bifaces was almost like a large preform that was  curated as a tool supply when needed and when its tool supply was finally finished into a typical clovis point.

Zuma,
Maybe I missed it, but why can't you view the video.

[Zuma]

Hey Steve, Thanks for the explanation.
I can't watch videos because I must be the only
guy in America with out broadband the POTUS
promised. I live in rural Page Co. VA. No cable
just an out dated underground phone line that I get
about 3kb a minuet on.
Anywho The Nub is interesting stuff. Kinda weird though.
Check your pm box. Questions about Bald Eagle.
Thanks Zuma
Oh btw did you catch Jack C's talk on the Macungie finds
at OR.

[mullet]

Now this is nice and informative and a lot simpler to follow. Thanks guys.

[bubby]

Its amazing what you can achieve by explaining things

[Zuma]

Well at least I just found someone in agreement with my thinking.
There is supposed to be some rebuttal but I just found this and will persue
more if possible. 


the role of experimental archaeology in the Solutrean-Clovis ...

Eren et al’s results suggest that overshot flakes are by products of a general biface thinning technique and in and of themselves are not very reliable or optimal at thinning bifaces. This conclusion seems to suggest that Solutrean and Clovis bifaces were produced using similar, simple, biface thinning techniques that resulted in occasional, accidental, overshot flakes. The article also contains a discussion of the existing archaeological evidence for overshot flaking in Clovis assemblages, not much, and the lack of comparable data in Solutrean assemblages.

[Zuma]

I found the rebuttal papers this morning and started a new thread.
Hope you all check them out.
Zuma

[caveman2533]

The role of Experimental archeology

https://experimentalarchaeology.wordpress.com/2014/03/03/overshooting-the-ice-the-role-of-experimental-archaeology-in-the-solutrean-clovis-ice-age-atlantic-crossing-hypothesis/

[JW_Halverson]

Remember, publish or die.

 
Zuma

Nice way to say "put up or shut up".  And if you never put up, who can prove your fulla fertilizer?

[Zuma]

Not exactly sure how to take that JW?
Lol My last post on the other overshot thread
may help explain the comment.
Zuma

[Stringman]

Most likely a supportive reference to the load of crap we were being fed in some of the former overshot threads.