Author Topic: sinew "bandaids"  (Read 9470 times)

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Offline steve b.

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2015, 12:09:26 am »
Why do some people with weak backs, or weightlifters, use wide waist belts?
What do hightop sports shoes accomplish?
Why wrap a sports injury?
Why does REI recommend stiff hightop boots for backpack loads instead of just any old trail shoe?

Offline PatM

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2015, 12:32:24 am »
A false sense of security.  ;)

Offline steve b.

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2015, 12:52:25 am »
Well at least you are consistent Pat. :)

mikekeswick

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2015, 02:27:35 am »
A 'weak' back is due to using it incorrectly. Nobody is born with a weak back they don't exercise/are lazy/exercise in the wrong way. Weightlifters use wide waist belts because they are doing something that the body is NOT designed to do...eg. ego problems!
Hightop sports shoes promote weakness and stop you from walking correctly.
Wrap a sports injury because we think that we have a right to do what we want when we want! You should be listening to your body and let it heal itself. Rushed healing processes result in more injuries.
REI recommend those boots because they want to sell them to you and make a profit. Regardless of the fact that boots also promote weakness in your lower legs and do absolutely nothing to 'support' your ankles.

"The human foot is a masterpiece of engineering and a work of art." - Leonardo da Vinci
This guy knew his stuff.

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2015, 08:50:07 am »
I'm with Brad on this one and most "ones". Great post. People do not realize that you have probably made more bows than all of us put together. You can tell your story, if you choose, I don't want to embarrass you anymore than I probably already will. :)

What I like about your posts is that you seem to understand the human element in this activity of ours. Imperfect people make imperfect bows. We are all imperfect. You correct but you never judge.

I remember years ago I mentioned that I thought bend in the handle bows had lots of hand shock. You set me straight on that one, LOL, and you were right. Bend in the handle bows are great shooters when tillered properly.

My aim is to help others make bows, too, Brad, and to be supportive to those who are starting out. We both started making bows long before there was an internet and so we remember how difficult it was in our beginning efforts...and so we offer gentle suggestions so people can get that first shooter.

I wish I had this forum when I started.

Making wooden bows is often about solving problems and making decisions.

Thanks, Brad.

Jawge
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 10:41:05 am by George Tsoukalas »
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Offline half eye

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2015, 09:47:42 am »
George, Brad  very well said gentlemen and I applaud you both.
rich

Offline bubby

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2015, 11:06:07 am »
A 'weak' back is due to using it incorrectly. Nobody is born with a weak back they don't exercise/are lazy/exercise in the wrong way. Weightlifters use wide waist belts because they are doing something that the body is NOT designed to do...eg. ego problems!
Hightop sports shoes promote weakness and stop you from walking correctly.
Wrap a sports injury because we think that we have a right to do what we want when we want! You should be listening to your body and let it heal itself. Rushed healing processes result in more injuries.
REI recommend those boots because they want to sell them to you and make a profit. Regardless of the fact that boots also promote weakness in your lower legs and do absolutely nothing to 'support' your ankles.

wow mike I usually agree with your posts but you pretty much missed on every crass generalization that you made, some people are born with bad backs, your three reasons for bad backs are just a small percentage of folks with bad backs, your not a basketball player either as those hi tops do prevent injury when I was a kid all we wore were chuck Taylor's with no support rolled my ankles all the time, I grew up riding bulls, saddle bronc and steer wrestling and doing a ton of things ya aren't built to do and none of that is why I needed both knees replaced before 50
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline steve b.

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2015, 11:25:03 am »
That's because Mike is part of the doctrine police group that roam here to shoot down any new threat to the clique's beliefs, sometimes losing rational in a deperate attempt to put someone in their place, and why many people no longer participate here.
You splint or wrap a weak area, reinforcing it, in order to move stress somewhere else, obviously.  We'll flood a knot or crack with superglue and that seems to be ok but if we wrap the same crack with sinew then we are somehow pathetic?

Offline Dances with squirrels

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2015, 12:20:07 pm »
Personally, I think familiarity with a variety of materials and techniques to save, repair, rework, refinish and such are all part of being a bowyer. But so is understanding when something can be saved and when attempting to do so will be time wasted. That said, there are countless lessons to be found in failed attempts, and first hand experience is the best way to learn what works and what doesn’t. Open communication with other bowyers can help, but my best mentors, while a great help, always allowed me plenty of room to fall down… and right myself :^)

Jayman, I will try to answer your question regarding different “forms of weak spots” and success with the wooden patches.

I have had good success so far with the wooden patches as described by Dean Torges, but I’ve been quite discriminating about if and where I use them. In my opinion, there are qualifiers that can largely determine their degree of success… and failure.

First, as noted, they must be executed flawlessly. Dean is likely the most meticulous, and discerning bowyer I know, so yeah, they tend to work for him :^)

Second, not all chrysals and frets are created by the same means, and whether or not this type of wooden patch will be an effective complete fix depends on them to some extent.

Let’s take a single fret across part or most of the width of the limb for instance. It could be the weakest single spot where the belly caved in, in the middle of an ‘area’ of weakness, say, 3 - 4” long or more. A hinge doesn’t hinge at a single point, it’s a weak ‘area’… with the fret(when a single fret is the result) happening at the weakest point within that area. Now, grinding out the fret and say 3/4” to either side of it in the process and perfectly executing the ‘Torges patch’ is effectively grinding out only the center of a larger weak, compacted area, and so is not assuring a complete fix. These are the patches that are more prone to try to push out, lift at the edges, fret to either side of the patch, etc. Much depends though, and in the end, even if executed flawlessly, sometimes they WILL work, sometimes they’ll work for a while and then fail, and sometimes they just don’t last worth a darn.

But on the other hand, this same wooden patch technique has much better success, and can affect a trusted, long term fix if the fret starts say, at a small knot or remnants of one… or something similarly specific, isolated, with otherwise uncompromised wood(not overly thinned or compressed) in ‘the area’. The more of the root cause the grinding removes, the greater its chance of success. Ideally, we grind it ALL out and the patch on such an occasion will put good wood against good wood all around it and we can continue as planned. Fixed…. Every bit, good working limb.

Also, I try to match the wood in the patch to the wood in the repair area as far as, quarter sawn to quarter sawn for instance, same ring size and density, moisture content, even use wood from the same tree if possible.

Now, multiple chrysals over a larger area? That’s beyond the scope of the wooden patch. Unless the chrysalling was caused by overly thinning of an area or improper tillering techniques, then it is likely due to inappropriate design for the wood species used and I would drop it and start another with the needed changes… but that’s me.
Straight wood may make a better bow, but crooked wood makes a better bowyer

Offline PatM

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2015, 01:12:06 pm »
That's because Mike is part of the doctrine police group that roam here to shoot down any new threat to the clique's beliefs, sometimes losing rational in a deperate attempt to put someone in their place, and why many people no longer participate here.
You splint or wrap a weak area, reinforcing it, in order to move stress somewhere else, obviously.  We'll flood a knot or crack with superglue and that seems to be ok but if we wrap the same crack with sinew then we are somehow pathetic?

 Sounds like a bunch of thin skinned folks could use a rawhide wrapping.

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2015, 02:00:52 pm »
I like that idea, ,I felt a little fretted lately,, :)

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2015, 02:26:34 pm »
Protecting a bow on the tension side is a time proven method but there is nothing you can do to save a bow when it's starting to fail in compression.  Sinew or rawhide are elastic but they just don't have the compression strength and it's the same with glues.  But you know if it makes you feel better then go for it.
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

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mikekeswick

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2015, 03:12:48 am »
That's because Mike is part of the doctrine police group that roam here to shoot down any new threat to the clique's beliefs, sometimes losing rational in a deperate attempt to put someone in their place, and why many people no longer participate here.
You splint or wrap a weak area, reinforcing it, in order to move stress somewhere else, obviously.  We'll flood a knot or crack with superglue and that seems to be ok but if we wrap the same crack with sinew then we are somehow pathetic?

Seriously you've got me way,way wrong there my friend.
I said that stuff because I spend almost my whole time barefoot. I know what i'm talking about because it's all firsthand personal experience. I am happy to debate ANY of the points I raise in a friendly manner with anybody. If you feel that I am wrong that's fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree  ;)
The only point I would change is where I said that nobody is born with a weak back. That was a gross generalisation. I should have said that a 'weak back' is used as an excuse for how some people have lived their lives up until the point where they thought their back was weak and used it as an excuse. My real point is that the vast majority of people nowadays think that by buying/using this/that (normally heavily marketed) product they will automatically become something they are not. This is linked into this thread by people thinking oh it's ok i'll be able to 'fix' it if I make a mistake. Whereas the best way to attack bowmaking is slowly, slowly until you develop your 'eye' then you can speed up a little if that's what you want to do. Due to the nature of what we are making (a 90% broken stick) there really can't be many flaws in it or else it will, at some point, go bang! Therefore in my eyes a chrysal is the end and not really worth trying to fix....however to get to this point of thinking I too have tried a few different things to fix them....
So I suppose my answer should be sure try to fix it - it will teach you something if nothing else! Learn by your own mistakes and plough your own furrow!

Offline Badger

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Re: sinew "bandaids"
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2015, 04:02:27 am »
  I feel the same way you do Mike, if something goes wrong in a bow build be it a mistake or a bad choice of wood I no longer bother with a repair. I never have any good feelings about a patched up bow.