Help, I need info

[Zuma]

I posted a thread called "Bannerstone Discussion" that is/was
interesting and informative but it failed me in the drilling department.
"Well, I need some help"

For a while I have thought "bannerstones" that got there original tag
because folks thought they were slipped on staffs like later flags,
Then by some odd reason they  became hunting aids slipped on to
atatls or were a connecting apparatus of some sort.
There is no direct intact archaeological information for this.
There are hundreds of intact wooden atatls found but not one with
 a stone attached.
The typical winged or shield bannerstone of the eastern US  has a
hole that does not equate to any found intact atatl on the planet.
This leads me to ponder their other potential use/uses.
Now here is where I need help. I think they were enlisted in the drilling trade.
A winged banner acts like a figure skater in the death spiral. This serves well
on a drill shaft, not to mention an additional non friction weight/pressure
applied to the work being drilled.
Why do I need your help? While atatl weight info abounds???
American ABO Drilling info is virtually non existent?
I can find ancient stone drilling reports from Egypt to Afghanistan but I can not find
any real worth while info for the Western Hemisphere except one report about beads from MS and LA. You can find info for every spectrum of bi-face chronology from a Western Stemmed in Idaho to a Yadkin triangle in Georgia with a stratification sequence, C14 .or some other concocted date.
You can find finite dates for pottery types and associated bi faces.
BUT--- I can't find it for drills or the associated equipment.
We all know there were a lot more holes drilled than all the ones in the bannerstones. How and when were they drilled?
 Gorgets, pendants and beads are some stone that also have drilled holes.
 Bone and wood was drilled also.  From pencil to paddle drills the dates and use are lacking in archaeological data that I can find. HELP!
Thanks
Zuma

[Buckeye Guy]

Did you try pump drill Yet
If I get time I will

[Zuma]

Thanks Buckeye,
I don't think I have tried those exact  words but when using every other
"Drill" search combos, pump comes up but with no real relevant info.
Some where along the line I have thought the pump came from Europe.
It is a good drilling method. A good friend of mine that does demo in soapstone
all over the country. He sets up with many pump drills and some slate for the
kids and their parents to try drilling. The kids love them.
Zuma

[Buck67]

My Grandmother was Inuit.  They used pump and bow drills in Baffin Island.  However I can't be sure whether those drills predated trade with the Europeans or not.

[JoJoDapyro]

How about as a weight on a bow drill for starting fires. It would make sense as to why they wouldn't be found on anything, and would aid in getting a fire going quicker. When the drill portion would wear out they could have just got another? I have zero information to back me up, just a crazy mans thoughts.

[DC]

My Grandmother was Inuit.  They used pump and bow drills in Baffin Island.  However I can't be sure whether those drills predated trade with the Europeans or not.

 By the time the Europeans arrived here they would be using a brace and bit wouldn't they? I'm thinking that the Inuit would have already had the pump drill.

[Zuma]

Thanks for all the input fellows

Buck, I also understand some Eskimos used a top block held in the
teeth and the string operated by both hands.

JoJo, From what I know the weight and flywheel effect of winged banners
 really work well with drilling. ( my experiments) With fire starting a slower
speed is better.The weight could help but is not really necessary as you
want to create friction on the sides of the started block not drill down into it.
A tubular banner might have been employed? Adding weight not torque.
DC Good question. I just don't really know and finding out exactly what was
 going on is much, much harder than I could have imagined.

I can't remember who posted it on one of my other threads off hand
but there is a You tube vid   Not much to do with Indians but gives some idea
of the potential of ancient technology.
 Moroccan Bow Lathe - You Tube

[ozarkokie]

I do not have answers to these questions but my Oklahoma background has exposed me to a lot of Native Americans and artifacts. Observing present day use of items, displays and actual use myself, I have concluded that sometimes I overthink and assume things when the answer is truly staring me in the face. Discussions like this keep the knowledge base growing. Thanks

[Zuma]

osark,
A big thanks just for joining the mix. Thinking in moderation lol
Zuma

[stickbender]

     Years ago, I was reading an article about banner stones, and it said the the mystery was solved, when an intact atlatl was found in a cave in Alabama, and it had a banner stone on it.  I don't remember the publication, as it was quite some time ago.  I have no other info on it.  There were many theories on the stone, as being worn as a "Gorget", around the neck.  The English, and French wore nice silver, and brass ones, and the Indians loved them, and they were included in trades, especially with chiefs during treaties.
                                    Wayne

[mullet]

I think it was National Geographic, after thinking about what Wayne said. And, I think I might have a copy of it, I'll see if I can find it.

[Zuma]

I think it was National Geographic, after thinking about what Wayne said. And, I think I might have a copy of it, I'll see if I can find it.

Cool. Thanks Wayne and Eddie.
Zuma

[JackCrafty]

The texasbeyondhistory website has some good references and some dated drill artifacts:

(search results)  http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/local/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=drill&submit=Go&config=tbh&restrict=&exclude=

Here's a good page:  http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/coast/nature/images/shell-ornaments.html

[JackCrafty]

I scanned a bunch of online resources, mainly pertaining to bead artifacts.

The problem I'm finding is that beads (and other perforated artifacts) are not found with the drills that were used to make the artifacts.  There are very few exceptions to this.  The texasbeyondhistory site offers at least a couple of these exceptions.

[Zuma]

 Can't wait to gheck them out Jack 8c
I'm off to the Big Easy and will look when I get back
Thanks
Zuma