Phragmites

[jeffp51]

am I right in making foreshafts for these that the entire foreshaft should be in front of the bow at full draw? seems like you wouldn't want the joint between the phragmites and the hardwood wacking the side of the bow.

[bubby]

that's the way i've seen them

[Knoll]

How do you go about removing the pithy inner portion of phragmite shaft so ya can insert the insert?

[Josh B]

You are correct Jeff.  The foreshaft stays forward of the bows back when drawn.
Knoll if you have a pithy center, its probably pampas grass not phragmites.  Pampas grass grows in clumps.  Phragmites spreads out over huge areas like cattails.   You may have to cross the river yet.  Josh

[Knoll]

Knoll ... You may have to cross the river yet.  Josh

oh, no!

[wazabodark]

I know I'm chiming in a little late on this thread, but I think I may finally have enough experience on a subject to pay back a little of what you folks have given me.
Up until just a couple of months  ago I was treating phragmite like it was river cane. As it turns out, there is no river cane in New Braunfels, TX.; but phragmites grow all over the place. You have to be very selective in the field when harvesting this stuff or you're gonna have a bad time. If the cane break you are in is yielding one paper thin  shaft after another do yourself a favor and move to the next one. The good  (and bad) stuff seems to all grow in the same areas. As stated earlier, you'll want to harvest mature shafts. They'll have grey sheaths and, at least in my area, yellow stems that may show a little green at the nodes. Make sure it has green leaves at the top of the shoot, anything standing dead is useless. The best stuff will be in the center of the break along with the rattle snakes, cow spiders, and whatever other creeping nasty your imagination and South Central Texas can conjure up.  Seriously, you  gotta want it.
  When making arrows, I've found the following tips to be most helpful:
1) harvest about 2 or 3 days after a good rain. I don't know why, but it seems like the walls are thicker and stronger.
2)dry slowly and naturally. No ovens, heat guns,  or fires. Patience, Grasshopper. Takes about 3 months in A Texas autumn. That's like a summer in Hell.  (I shucked mine for drying).
3)use a foreshaft. I use Bodark or Mesquite because thorns are awesome.
4)leave about 2" of culm and run the foreshaft all the way to the node. Wrap behind  the support node and at the shaft/foreshaft intersection.
5)do not rush the straightening process. Use a heatgun, not a torch. Once it starts to shine it's ready to bend. Once it starts to darken it's ready to break.
6)read #5 again
7)you can drill out the culm to fit the foreshaft if you have to. Take a couple of wraps of masking tape around the section to be drilled. Make sure you get a good, tight wrap ;because wrinkles in the tape offend my sense of asthetics. (did I spell that right?)
8)use a nock plug. Again, try to pick a hardwood that's thorny and painful to handle.
9)if a shaft has an oversized bulge or a drastic bend close to the node, or if it just won't straighten or stay straight, get rid of it. It's just a stick, not a point of honor.
10)MOST IMPORTANT :IF YOU  HAVE BEEN IN THE SHOP FOR 9 HOURS AND YOU'VE BROKEN 67 ARROWS BUT ONLY STRAIGHTENED 3 DO NOT KICK THE DOG. HE LOVES YOU AND IT'S NOT HIS FAULT. It's the cats fault. Just ask the dog.
    Most kidding aside,  phragmites make  a really good  arra, if treated properly. I wouldn't do allot of stumping with them, bit they will fly fast and true. Good for targets and game. Hope this helps. 

[Knoll]

Thanks, waza.  67 broke & 3 successes, huh?  You're doing better than I!!  But still have some remaning, and gonna give another effort.

[JackCrafty]

Phragmites works great for arrows... it just doesn't get perfectly straight no matter how hard you try.

Waza, I don't think you have phrag in New Braunfels.  I haven't found any there.  What you got is Arundo Donax, not Phragmites australis subsp. americanus.

If you don't got stuff with walls like in the pictures below, you aint got phragmites!  (none of these were cut near the node where the reed is thicker)

Come to Midland.  We got it. 

[Knoll]

Patrick . . . my stuff is hollow, like your pic.  But your pictured wall thickness seems to be gobs (scientific term) thicker than mine.

[JackCrafty]

Yep, phragmites is gobs thicker than other reed.   

[Comancheria]

Do any of you feel that the spine and strength of Phragmites increases as it dries?  Not 100 % certain what I have here--I have ruled out Arundaria Gigantica and am pretty sure I have a mixture of Phragmites stands and stands of Arundo Donax.

I think this statement by Josh is key:

"...If you cut some that isn't mature, it will shrivel as it dries and get a wrinkly appearance.  If it doesn't wrinkle its probably good to go.  When harvesting phragmites, look for the tallest culms with the narrowest diameter base.  The walls get thinner the higher up the culm you go so ideally you want your arrow from the lowest section of the culm.  Phragmites is high in spine for its weight so you ideally want your arrow from the lowest section of the culm..."

I hadn't thought of it this way, but I have about 50 stalks drying in the garage, and this makes sense.  Where I live, just north of Corpus Christi, we rarely get a freeze.  We have some really big bases on the culms--hard to get below 1/2 inch.  And since most of it isn't dormant--ever--portions of suitable diameter near the top tend to be crumpled and weak. 

I really would prefer not to have a .5 inch diameter nock.

Russ

[Springbuck]

  Hey, Jeff!   I am a Utahn, as well.  The specie you see in the GSL marshes and around UL is NOT the same specie the guys back east use.  At least my research tells me so.  Ours lives only a year or two, and is very sensitive to water levels. It is an imported/invasive species.

"Phragmites" is the name of a whole family of grasses that grow as reeds.  What we have, I believe is Phrag. Australis.    My experience makes me think kid's arrows only.  I don't know what these guys back east have, but rivercane and hill cane are not the same as what we have.

  But, if you like, I'd be happy to show you where we can cut plum, chokecherry, willow, and red osier shoots.

[JackCrafty]

Comancheria, the ones with the wrinkly appearance are dispersed within the stands and seem to be weaker in general no matter what the age.  They are usually shorter and have more dense leaf growth near the top.  I haven't seen the wrinkly appearance created from the drying process.

Phrag and Donax produce toxins that prevent the growth of other plants within the stand.  I don't think the stands are mixed but different stands might be different species.  Phrag tends to grow shorter and doesn't get much thicker than 3/4" of an inch at the base.  I've seen some close to 1" wide but they are very rare.

Reed will dry well in a hotbox or hot car.  I've dried them in as little as two weeks on the dashboard during the summer.  Keep the leaves on if they were harvested in wet weather.  They do split sometimes when they are very green and heavy with water.  The leaves help to slow the drying on the outer skin.

You can use reed anywhere along the stem as long as it matches the spine you need.  Let the spine tester tell you what to use.

[JackCrafty]

I've been doing a lot of reading on phragmites and, because I am not a botanist, I am probably oversimplifying what I'm calling "phragmites".  In fact, botanists regard phragmites as "common reed" and say that phrag grows in all states and is invasive except for the possibility of a native strain in the western US.  I believe we have that native strain where I live.  I've seen actual artifacts (reed arrow shafts) made by southwest Indians and the arrows are NOT thin-walled.  Some of these arrows are at least 1000 years old and definitely are not made from plants introduced by Europeans.

[Comancheria]

The stuff is definitely in separate stands.  My observation is that what I am thinking is the AD has heavy side growths emerging from many of the nodes.  There are marks at those same nodes on what I call the Phragmites, but no real leaves growing from there.  Also, the AD has a straighter plume, whereas it looks to me that what I am assuming to be the Phragmites has a more branched or scraggly plume.

The Ag guys down here swear that what I am calling Phragmites is exactly that--but I Am not sure yet.  Still, u am going to try to make arrows out of the stuff--as well as from Youpon.  May even use skinny Youpon for mock inserts and fire shafts as well.

And this is a most helpful thread!

Best regards,

Russ