Osage pin knots on belly and side?

[lebhuntfish]

So I was working on my Osage stave tonight, I have never worked around pin knots before. I got the back ring just like I was told with the knots. But I was taking the stave down to my lines tonight and thought I would ask about the pin knots or knots in general on the belly side and the sides or edge of the limbs.

Should I just cut through them on the belly side?
I think I should just work around them the best I can on the sides, right?
What are the way you guys do it?
What is the best tool or tool's to use to work around the knots?

Patrick

[lukelawrence171]

You need to be very careful trying to work knots on the belly of the bow the wood will tear very easily but the bow should be more than fine if you leave the knots in on the belly I would just work them with a rasp when you get to that area it would be nice to see pics of the knots  on the side of the bow to see how bad they are but the main thing is just to take your time around knots.

[Crogacht]

I was literally considering this problem 15 minutes ago. One of the limbs on my elm bow has several knots/pins on the belly. I've started to work around them with the rasp, leaving the wood slightly raised around them. Some look more... "tight" than others if that makes sense. It seems like the real tight/solid looking one would be OK to basically just cut through, but other's look a bit more dodgy so I might leave extra wood there. I'm also feeling like pins or knots coming out the side should have extra wood left regardless.

Once the bow gets closer to final thickness etc I think I might switch from the rasp to my scraper/sharp short knife. I think on your first few bows, just making one that doesn't explode is probably a good goal, I'm not too worried if the cast is less than average or whatever due to "overbuilding" the bow.

This is my first bow though, and just my feelings on the issue having been faced with it also.

[SLIMBOB]

Most of my tiller work on Osage is with a draw knife.  The sharper the better for tillering as you can shave wood off without much effort.  Then a scraper for the finesse work.  I keep a sanding block handy to keep the belly smooth while tillering.  Knots on the belly are something I rarely worry about.  Take care not to rip them apart, but a sharp knife and a little caution will remedy that.  Knots on the edge are another story.  Follow the grain around the knots faithfully.  Try and keep from cutting thru a knot on the edge of the limb.  Better to have the knot intact and surrounded by clean heart wood if possible.  Sometimes it is not possible and it can still be dealt with.  Depends on what your dealing with.  Pics?

[Dances with squirrels]

Try not to saw or rasp through a pin knot when you cut out or shape the width profile. Leave extra clean, non-knot wood around each pin. If cut through on limb's edge, or too near it, the more brittle knot wood can start a crack.

[lebhuntfish]

Here are some pictures of the knots. Some of them don't coincide with a knot on the back and some do. I would call all of them, some kind of pin knot.

 

 

 

 

[Hamish]

 Osage is more tolerant of pin knots on the belly than most woods. That being said it depends upon how narrow your bow is, how long it is, where the pins are located on the limb, draw length and what draw weight you are going for. The more stress the stave is to be given the more work you need to do to maximise success.
Old time bowyers left a slight swelling around the pin on the belly or side, like a pimple to add extra strength. I use this method frequently. It makes weight reduction of a stave take longer as you have to work the belly in sections rather than long sweeping strokes, but I have never hade a chrysal in any timber since doing the extra work if necessary.

Osage is pretty awesome stuff and most of the time you can get away with little if any compensation with pins. It just seems to me a little extra work is worth it for peace of mind that your stave will survive into a bow with excellent longevity, rather than with a chrysal  or cracked limb on the edge of the back.

       Hamish

[SLIMBOB]

Knots or not, I keep the belly flat if I can.  If it is a run of the mill pin knot on the belly, I just ignore it.  Not disagreeing with Hamish as I believe he is right in that length, width, weight and draw length are all part of the equation.  I simply don't leave the belly built up around a knot like those.  Osage can handle it as a rule.  The bigger it gets, or if it is hollow or punky, I may leave the tiller a little flat but that's about it, but that is just a matter looking at the knot and making a judgment call really.  Knotty staves I will go longer as a rule so that the stress is less on any one area.  This bow had knots galore.  First pic is during tiller and second is a recent pic.  Most were a non factor.  Some were voids along the belly edge that I filled with super glue.  I'm not sure that most other woods would have held up, but this one is fine.  Flat belly worked as normal, left just a little flat on the bad ones along the edge.

[lebhuntfish]

Thanks very much guys, I feel much better about my concerns now.  I like to do things the right way. Meaning  doing it right the first time and not having to fix it later. It's really nice to have PA as a resource.

I will see how they look after I take the belly down some more. It's still over an inch thick. I will choose probably Hamish's suggestion, my bow layout is kinda narrow. It is 64 in long with a flat bow design almost pyramid.  I really appreciate the pictures SLIMBOB, seeing it finished makes it nice. And pics say a thousand words.