Author Topic: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...  (Read 132460 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Keenan

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,824
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #360 on: November 30, 2012, 03:16:21 pm »
I live in the high desert of Central Oregon. Had my yew bows out in the heat near 100 and extremely dry conditions and out hunting the late seasons in 10 degree cold. never had any problems.
 
Toomany, "And also, Osage makes a better warbow that yew."    I can't believe you would spew such heresies. Have you no shame! ;D >:D Maybe you are very cunning and trying a new tactic to get us yew lovers to send you some :o

Offline George Tsoukalas

  • Member
  • Posts: 9,425
    • Traditional and Primitive Archers
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #361 on: November 30, 2012, 03:21:11 pm »
Pretty civil discussion. Please keep it that way. Whippy bows will stack unless made longer than usual. Bows tillered circularly  will stack if not long enough in relation to draw length. Type of tiller is a non issue for stacking and so is weight. It's about the design.  Stacking is only a function of string angle. As string angle approaches 90 deg the bow stacks badly as Bobo used to say. I do agree that getting more bending close to the handle decreases stack...again because of string angle.  Now I don't make war bows so take my remarks with a grain of salt.  :) Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline Maxspin

  • Member
  • Posts: 83
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #362 on: November 30, 2012, 03:44:47 pm »
And why do warbows have to be 80 'ish inches long while any other style of bow can be altered according to the wood we use? Why cant a warbow be 68" long and made from osage?

I was hoping that someone with more “credibility” on this site would bring this up.

The question should not be about an “Osage” EWB. Instead should be how would Osage be optimally designed to shoot a “War” arrow. That would also go for White wood bows. Just because they are “secondary” bow woods for an EWB design does not mean that they “could” not be a first class war bow if designed to the strengths of the wood.

It would be interesting to see what the experts would come up with using their favorite wood if the only criteria was that it had to shoot a 800 - 900 grain arrow with an armor piercing tip farther than 150 yards.

Keith

Offline PEARL DRUMS

  • Member
  • Posts: 14,079
  • }}}--CK-->
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #363 on: November 30, 2012, 03:47:55 pm »
Keith I believe that has been Ryoon's point from the start.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,999
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #364 on: November 30, 2012, 04:32:33 pm »
Keith, what Pearl Drums said.  ;D

TMK, my guess is your bows weren't made well and that's why they performed the way they did.

Offline ionicmuffin

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,787
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #365 on: November 30, 2012, 05:38:34 pm »
i think that there has been a large amount of nastiness because of this post... it may be wise to avoid any insults that people plan on throwing around. might not end up in smiles.
Amo innectis arcus- I love crafting bows (latin)

Offline PEARL DRUMS

  • Member
  • Posts: 14,079
  • }}}--CK-->
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #366 on: November 30, 2012, 05:40:30 pm »
The nastiness just appeared muffin. Most has only been colorful conversation.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,999
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #367 on: November 30, 2012, 05:53:54 pm »
Didn't mean to insult. I've seen your craftsmanship and know you can make a good bow. But you did say the warbows you made were made years ago which lends me to believe you may not have been at the skill level you are now. I know A few years ago my bows were no good. I just can't see how you're making those claims when they make no sense. And I don't claim to have godlike bow making abilities. Most of that was joking around. Maybe one day though.  O:)

Offline ionicmuffin

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,787
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #368 on: November 30, 2012, 06:01:17 pm »
maybe add some hint of joking or sarcasm like roll of the eyes where appropriate to make sure people get your joke? dont know if you did.
Amo innectis arcus- I love crafting bows (latin)

Offline adb

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,339
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #369 on: November 30, 2012, 06:45:37 pm »
I wonder what kind of war bows we would have seen if medieval bowyers had been able to access osage.

blackhawk

  • Guest
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #370 on: November 30, 2012, 06:56:31 pm »
Dar she blows...lol  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:


Offline RyanY

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,999
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #371 on: November 30, 2012, 07:32:02 pm »
Well it looks like this conversation is coming to a close. I just want to say thank you to everyone who participated and thanks for keeping it clean. This by far the most fun discussion I've been a part of since I started making bows. It makes me happy to the the inferno of passion we can get within this community just by stoking the fire a little bit. I hope we are able to have many more talks like this in the future. Happy bow making!

Also I still want to see more poplar bows...  >:D

Offline toomanyknots

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,132
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #372 on: November 30, 2012, 07:38:19 pm »
Didn't mean to insult. I've seen your craftsmanship and know you can make a good bow. But you did say the warbows you made were made years ago which lends me to believe you may not have been at the skill level you are now. I know A few years ago my bows were no good. I just can't see how you're making those claims when they make no sense. And I don't claim to have godlike bow making abilities. Most of that was joking around. Maybe one day though.  O:)

Ya, I probably got the emotional maturity of a 10 year old. I suck at heated forum discussions. I apologize, and will delete my previous post. But the only so called "claims" I am making are well known facts. Yes, I know the definition of a fact is something that can be proven, blah blah blah, you know what I mean.  ::) Here you go so you don't go putting words in my mouth, this is all I am saying:

- Osage is not a great choice for a warbow because it's density can make it sluggish and shocky at longer lengths. This ain't no claim, it's a well known fact.

- There are way better (read: better performing, because that is what matters to me) choices of bow wood for a warbow, or even a longbow.

- Because of this, I believe osage is not ideal in every scenario. (I also think that I can easily get better performance in other styles of bow out of "white woods" than osage, too while were at it, but I would never dare try to argue that in public after all this,  ;D.)

- And only as a result of our discussion, I will tell you now, that a 76" - 78" warbow will always pull a thousand times smoother in the last couple inches of draw compared to a 72" warbow. I believe tiller has alot to due with the nature of the draw, and that an elliptical tiller on a shorter bow does have the potential to stack in the last couple inches, due to string angle like george pointed out. I firmly believe that an elliptical tiller is not ideal tiller for a warbow for this reason, and that of the added set an elliptical tiller has the potential to create (sometimes). Although I know elliptically tillered warbows are the norm alot of the time, and it is very very common. I have read many times that a warbow that bends in the handle too much will be a slow shooter. And we all know handshock is an issue. But after making 100# draw warbows out of woods which I really shouldn't of, I have come to dislike an elliptical tiller, because:

 A ) An even bend, when compared to an elliptical tiller which would bend mostly on the outer - mid limbs and only slightly in the center, is more ideal as far as set is concerned. I used to think the other way, my thinking being that the center is under so much pressure compared to the outer limbs, that I was scared to get it bending much in fear of set. And we all know set in the middle is killer. But what kept happening to my warbows, was that I would end up with set mid limb. I do admit that at the time I was not using osage, but lesser grade woods. That is what I believe anyhow, I still have a horrible habit of tillering longbows elliptically, if you have seen any of my longbows I have posted. I really don't mind it in a longbow, as it reduced handshock a bit, and none of the longbows I make are 32" draw or anywhere close to heavy weight anymore. But for warbows of mulberry or silver maple (which is a horrid wood in compression btw, maybe the worse even. And yes, I've made warbows out of it. Because I am that stupid.), I would just end up with too much set mid - limb. And...

 B ) An even bend simply will pull smoother. You can easily claim this is because of string angle. I think that is a simple way to put it. I believe leverage is a factor in there too though. Like the longer a molly's lever is, the smoother the draw, if you catch my drift. Do you know what I'm saying? I wish I could put a elliptically tillered warbow, and an even bending warbow in your hands in real life, and have you draw both to compare.

Anyway, what exactly doesn't make sense to you?

Also:

I've seen your craftsmanship and know you can make a good bow.

Now your definitely full of crap,  ;D.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 12:56:10 pm by toomanyknots »
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline SLIMBOB

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,759
  • Deplorable Slim
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #373 on: November 30, 2012, 07:47:46 pm »
I didn't see any nastiness.  I've been reading a highly interesting debate, about wood bows, their construction and design.  Seems to me their could have been a conspiracy of sorts between the two main protagonists to get this thing going.  Lots of ideas and opinions thrown around, but both ready to back up their assumptions with data.  Both eager to call unsupported dogma just that.  Ryoon, your a bulldog!  Get 'em on the run and then keep snapping at their backside during their retreat.  My hat's off to you Sir.  Blachawks bonafides are well known by his work.  Enjoyed this one a bunch.

Edit.  Spoke too soon. ^
Liberty, In God We Trust, E Pluribus Unum.  Distinctly American Values.

Offline toomanyknots

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,132
Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #374 on: November 30, 2012, 07:52:54 pm »
I didn't see any nastiness.  I've been reading a highly interesting debate, about wood bows, their construction and design.  Seems to me their could have been a conspiracy of sorts between the two main protagonists to get this thing going.  Lots of ideas and opinions thrown around, but both ready to back up their assumptions with data.  Both eager to call unsupported dogma just that.  Ryoon, your a bulldog!  Get 'em on the run and then keep snapping at their backside during their retreat.  My hat's off to you Sir.  Blachawks bonafides are well known by his work.  Enjoyed this one a bunch.

Edit.  Spoke too soon. ^

What unsupported dogma do you speak of? Aint nobody ran me off anywhere bob.
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair