Author Topic: Confusion about wood grain.  (Read 6403 times)

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Offline ionicmuffin

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Confusion about wood grain.
« on: September 24, 2012, 09:07:57 pm »
For a while now i have been buying boards with strait running rings because i thought that the grain runs with the rings. But as of late i broke a bow, and i guess the grain wasn't strait. so my next step is to clarify what the grain is. i have 2 pictures here, one shows "rays" which i am beginning to think is the grain, the other one is an example of the grain being diagonal to the direction you would want it to run. I'm mostly interested in finding out exactly what the grain is and what run outs look like.(maybe both pictures show that.) I would really like to hear your inputs since i haven't seen any other visual pictures of grain other than these.
Amo innectis arcus- I love crafting bows (latin)

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2012, 09:24:00 pm »
I answered your earlier threadt. If you go to the link I gave you, on that board build along, that is a picture of a board with an almost perfect grain=================, straight tip to tip. The board in your picture would not even have worked if backed. Leave boards like that in the store and walk away. The board in your picture is plain sawn. There are 3 board cuts-plain sawn =, rift sawn \\ and 1/4 sawn ||. Questions welcomed. Jawge
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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2012, 09:26:20 pm »
All 3 cuts will make a bow. For 1/4 sawn grain must be completely straight. Here's the link again. Keep asking until you get it. I made my living answering questions. :) Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/boardbowbuildalong.html
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline ionicmuffin

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 09:36:45 pm »
yep i looked at the web sight and now i understand what the grain is in that picture. i wasn't seeing it before because i thought that those were the rings. the pictures i posted are from google images. I wasn't sure what grain was, but then when i started looking at the board that broke earlier i realized that it was running off badly. that along with the fact that it was really light may have been the main factors in the breakage. the other board i bought was heavy and the grain is VERY strait vs the other one that i had. i think i may be able to do better picking them out now. as far as i am understanding, grain needs to be strait, rings should be kind of running tip to tip if possible but isnt largely important.
Amo innectis arcus- I love crafting bows (latin)

Offline k-hat

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 09:40:36 pm »
yep the rays are what is called the radial grain, and the rings make the longitudinal grain if i remember correctly.  I don't think the grain (rays) will affect ability to make a bow, but i do know they will cause prop twist in a board if they are not running with the longitudinal grain.  TBB1 goes into some explanation of how grain runs in trees and boards are cut.  I did the same as you, made a bow with strait long grain, but rays running off at about 20degrees, gave it a pesky propeller twist, but it was fine otherwise :)

Offline ionicmuffin

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 09:55:21 pm »
ok so a very slight run out like 20 degrees with 2 per limb is fine. the stuff that broke was 60 degrees and it ran all along the break line. im beginning to think that the rays matter enough that if you don't get it strait enough it will be problematic.
Amo innectis arcus- I love crafting bows (latin)

Offline bubby

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 07:46:29 pm »
like jawge said get as close to perfect as you can get, 90% of the bows i build are boards, sometimes ya leave the store empty handed, i go to a hardwood dealer and pick thru it for hours, have got real friendlly with the owner Gus, bub
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 08:43:44 pm »
Yes, 2 per limb should be ok particularly if you take my advice and let your first be a bend in the handle bow with no glued on handle. Jawge
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Offline lostarrow

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2012, 12:37:40 am »
Think of it like this. The rings( curved lines on the end of the board ) each represent a growing season. At one point, each one of those would be the layer of the tree directly under the bark, with a new ring added every year. The Rays (Medlulary,I don't know if I spelled this right) which are more pronounced on some woods than others,run from the center of the tree to the outside  like the spokes of a wheel.Because a tree is tapered ,large at the bottom and smaller at the top, the resulting saw log is not a cylinder.We like our building material to be straight and square ,so we cut  the rounded outer sections of the log off, not parallel to the outer surface ,but in straight lines  roughly parallel to the axis or centerline of the log (Ideal world). The lumber is then cut off of the sides of this squared timber,to maximise yield. The out sides (slabs) are considered waste and are either sold for firewood ,chipped,or used for fuel to fire the kilns ,heat the mill, or run steam generators, depending on the size and efficiency of the operation. The slabs are what would be ideal for bowyers if you have a small local mill or know someone that runs a portable bandsaw mill, that doesn't use a "debarker". So the "grain" is the  growthrings that run the length of the board . The "Endgrain" is the growthrings you see on the end of the board. The "Edgegrain" is what you see on the narrow side of the board. And the "Facegrain " is on the wide  side of the board. A board cut  with it's  endgrain "rings " going from narrow edge to narrow edge , roughly parallel to the wide edge, is  called plainsawn. If the growthrings run from wide face to  wide face ,it is radial sawn .I know most of you are going to say "Quarter Sawn " but just wait for it!................ If the grain runs on an angle of about 45deg. more or less , it's quarter sawn .Those spokes (rays) we talked about earlier  will show up as light coloured streak across the face of the "Quarter" and"Radial" sawn boards. True" Quarter Sawn" and "Radial Sawn" boards will make better bows because of the way they are milled. The Log is cut into "Quarters " and the boards are then cut off of the flat faces Which are parallel to the axis.  "Radial " is the first couple of cuts they get from those quarters, as they will have the grain oriented 90deg. to the face. There is also flat cutting ( Mostly specialty for the cabinet and furniture industry)where they just make consecutive cuts through the log ,without taking off slabs or turning the log. Even quarter sawing is very rare in the grand scheme of things. the boards you are getting from the lumber yard are all plain sawn. In each log you will get some boards that have Quarter or Radial  looking grain, but it's not necessarily going to be true to the grain of the tree. For the most part , they will suit our purpose ,as long as the grain doesn't run off too much. Let that soak in for a while then we can talk about Knots, Crooks, Twists, Crotches, Figure, Timberbind,Blue stain vs mineral stain,Shakes, Honeycomb...................................................

Offline k-hat

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2012, 08:34:26 am »
Wow, nice explanation lostarrow!! That's the most thorough i think i've seen :)

Offline SLIMBOB

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2012, 08:59:10 am »
Can you repeat that ?
Liberty, In God We Trust, E Pluribus Unum.  Distinctly American Values.

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2012, 10:39:55 am »
ionicmuffin, if choosing 1/4 sawn...that one has to be perfect on the edge grain tip to tip. For the other 2 ok 2 have 2 run ups per limg.
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Offline Fred Arnold

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2012, 11:55:54 pm »
lostarrow, great explanation and I understand what you're saying, but I like pictures, makes things much easier for me anyway!!!!
Fred
I found many years ago that it is much easier and more rewarding working with those that don't know anything than those that know it all.

Offline lostarrow

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Re: Confusion about wood grain.
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2012, 12:58:37 am »
Yeah, I know it's allot to take in without pics. I'll see what I can come up with. Once you understand how the tree grows and reacts to certain growing conditions , working with the wood becomes so much easier.Busy weekend so it may not happen till next week.