First vine maple stave! (and overall first stave)---[Hinge broke the bow]

[SLIMBOB]

If you are going to put any recurve in the tips, heat and bend before you glue the lam on.  I don't know what you are going for in terms of design, nor do I know what kind of experience you have, so I'm just making sure you've thought about it.  Few thoughts, don't bend the bow until you get the hinge fixed.  What kind of tool are you using to take wood off?  Looks like a rasp???  Too aggressive at this stage.  Use a draw knife if you have one.  A nice sharp knife of any kind will suffice otherwise (6, 8, 10 inch blade).  Take little paper thin slices off (holding the blade at a 90 degree angle to the wood and scraping) as opposed to big chunks.  If you use the rasp, I would stay with the flat side.  Your wanting to get the belly board flat from handle to tip.  Worry about following the contours once you have it closer to finished.

***Don't get it too thin in ANY spot.  If in doubt, leave it thick and move up the limb.

[ionicmuffin]

now to be clear. i remove a 1-2 inches of wood around the hinge area so that its flat so i can glue up a lam correct? i will go get epoxy if that's whats strongly suggested. if not i will use something like tb2. I have never done this before, however, it seems strait forward enough. Let me know what glue and if i should remove wood.

[SLIMBOB]

Well, the last 6 inches or so should be static, so feather the lam out just short of that 6 inch mark.  You don't want the lam to have to bend.  The bend will end where the lam begins (close).  So there-in lies the answer to your question.  1 to 2 inches seems to short.  I would make the lam 4 -5 inches long, so the flattened area on the belly should be 4 to 5 inches as well.  Something to consider.  If the limb is too thick where the lam begins (handle side) you will have hell with it.  Get the thickness close to where you want it before you glue up.  You can always scrape some of the lam and glue off if you need, but get it close tiller wise.

I think any good glue will work.  Your not asking the joint to bend, but use good gluing technique.  TB, epoxy, hide glue, knox gelatin, carpenters glue.  Any of these should work if applied properly. 

[ionicmuffin]

so even with a REALLY short bow i can still make 6 inches of tips static? if so i will need to apply another lam to the other side to make sure that the othe side doesnt bend as well...

[SLIMBOB]

I have no experience with vine maple.  I don't know if 60 inches is long enough for the species.  You do need to keep the last 6 inches or so stiff to keep it from stacking on you regardless.  Go 4 inches if your concerned about it.  Might want to back it with raw hide just to make sure.  Hey, it's just an experiment at this point, but I think it will work.

[ionicmuffin]

ok, so im wondering then, is rawhide as good as flax at keeping it from failing? i was reading the tbb1 and i read that flax can make a bow last even if it wants to break it cant.

[SLIMBOB]

I've never used flax.  Rawhide will do the trick.  You have to get it tillered right first.

[ionicmuffin]

yeah, so where can i get this rawhide? i will be putting the lams on tomorrow, and if necessary getting some epoxy.

[SLIMBOB]

This forums trading post.  You can also buy a rawhide chew toy.  Soak it to soften it up.

[ionicmuffin]

ok, so basiclly any form of rawhide will work so long as i make it soft?

[SLIMBOB]

Pretty much.  I like the thinner stuff, goat or deer.  You may not need it.  Maybe someone with some experience with Vine Maple will chime in and answer that question.

You asked if you need to do the other side as well.  I did.  I wanted the bow balanced, so I duplicated the stiffener or lam on both sides.  You'll have to make that call.

[aaron]

I have to disagree with slimbob's advice- if you make both tips static by gluing on belly lams, you will have less working limb which will make it harder to get your 29+ drawlength. Static tips would reduce stack a little, but in my opinion any short bow will feel like it's stacking- it's just physics.
also these lams will prevent your plan to flip the tips- heat will kill the glue.
my advice is to tiller out the hinge and just accept whatever weight it comes out at.
What is the thickness at the hinge? My 50 lb bows are only about 3/8 thick 5 inches from the tip.
how did the hinge develop? What tool were you removing wood with? were you using a caliper to measure and compare thickness? When i tiller lumpy VM i check the taper with a caliper often. I tiller with a rasp and follow the lumps in the back from the very start. if you dont follow the lumps, each one becomes a stiff spot, reducing your working limb.
you can use a crescent wrench like a caliper, or even carefully measure with a ruler. In my opinion a caliper is the #1 tool for achieving good tiller in VM. Using this tool to create an even taper results in an evenly bending stave at first low brace. I have been working VM for over 15 years.
have you tried drawing the lines on the sides to judge bend as i suggested earlier?
beware of the drawknifeit can easily tear up splinters on this type of wiggly grain.
caliper, rasp, caliper , rasp, caliper raspcaliperraspcaliperrasp. repeat.

[vinemaplebows]

Aaron,

                     Interesting I have been working vine maple for 20 yrs, never used a caliper once. I suspect it could be helpfull, but really over thinking it in my opinion. You could add a belly lam, but a lot of work with iffy results. I would get a new piece of wood myself. To the guy thats building this bow....STOP trying to follow the dips any more than is needed for a rough tiller....then go back, and remove wood from the dips, yes you may need to remove wood from some of the dips prior to your final tiller. You also have to factor in natural reflex (if this is a factor) top, and bottom limb can have slight reflex, while the bottom straight to slight deflex. I can't see how calipers can help at this junction??? I have built well over a hundred vine maple bows.

VMB

[ionicmuffin]

the thickness at the hinge is 5/16 of an inch thick and its 3-3 1/2 inches from the tip. as ive said before, there would have been a LOT of near-handle and mid limb wood removal to get it to 50 lbs at 29 inches. thus it could be that ive removed all the wood nececarry from that part and just have to remove all over the rest of the bow. for all i know it could be that since it is shorter and since the limbs will be thin anyways(currently they tapper from the handle 1" to pretty close to 1/2" near the hinge.) Let me know what you think. When i was pulling it at low brace it was reading 45 lbs at 12-15 inches.

[aaron]

vinemaple bows- yeah, the caliper is not the only way to do these, just my favorite way. The caliper is just my way of checking what you probably do with just eyes and hands. I respect your opinions and ways- you seem to know what you're talking about .

ionic muffin- if you have 5/16 at the hinge, then you might just get it tillered out . as you say here " thus it could be that ive removed all the wood nececarry from that part and just have to remove all over the rest of the bow. for all i know it could be that since it is shorter and since the limbs will be thin anyways"
I have a bow about like the profile and length you have there, but it's at work. what is your width at handle and at fades? how wide at the hinge?