tuning and mixed shoots

[Chicknlady]

Hi, I've been driving myself nuts trying to figure out the whole arrow-tuning/spine issue; subtract five pounds, add five pounds, shorten the arrow, put on a lighter tip, shave down the shaft etc...   Finally I gave up and just selected the best six rose-shafts I had prepared a while ago, put points and fletching on, and shot them... over and over...  then I checked each on my rough spine-tester, and things are finally making a little more sense!   

Considering the time and mistakes and fumbling learning to fletch them...  couldn't believe two of the six actually flew better than any of the mis-matched aluminum or carbon arrows I've been practicing with     They actually shot from my bow straight, no wobbling in any direction... I've never seen that yet!

The spine of the two good arrows averaged about .52 inches of deflection, I checked all four sides.   I had two tanks that averaged about .35, and flew terrible... and the other two are a little lighter, and fly so-so depending on how good my form is.  They are 26" long, the heads are 90 grains, and the fletching is 4-1/2" goose feathers.

My question is, I'm out of good, cured rose shafts...  but I have a bunch of dried ash and maple shoots.   Should a "perfectly" tuned arrow, regardless of species, potentially hit the same spot on the target??   There are so many variables that it makes my head spin! 

Thanks!

[lostarrow]

You can match the spine but the shoot shafts will likely be much heavier. they will still shoot well from your bow at the correct spine but will drop significantly faster, and will likewise have a shorter cast ( maximum distance). Although the speed drops with heavier arrows , the force on impact increases (to a point) which is desirable in most big game hunting and medieval warfare . I don't know if you are planning on doing either. The lighter arrows are prefered for targets because the flatter trajectory is more forgiving of misjudged distances. Sounds like a bunch of blah , blah, blah ,but when you shoot some you will understand easily ,just as you did with spine. Good luck, and have fun.

[burchett.donald]

     Chicknlady,
                      Unless the pictures are deceiving me there are some right wing feathers put on with left helical. Are your fletching all from the same wing? If not this can and will cause tuning problems if mixed on the same shaft. Right wing for right helical and left wing for left helical. Examine yours and see what you find. Good luck and good shooting.

[crooketarrow]

Bud I found out long ago when I first started building shoot arrows 3 things.
  (1) SHOOTS of the same kind the same leanth and same thickess don't spine the same. Reason  you have to deal with the small on comeing limbs ,knots old scared areas. All of these areas are not equal strenth.UNLIKE DOWLS THAT ARE CUT FROM A MUCH MORE UNFORM (BIGGER LOG) WOOD.
  Shoot arrows have a much better spine range. Increaseing (better) with the more center shoot your bow is.
  (2) Your dealing with a slow self bow. This is why your bow can shoot crooket arrows. As long as their not too crooket.
  (3) I hav'nt weighted a arrow in 20 years. You can make a matched set with a lot of sanding or adding weight. But here we go again it's a slow self bow. I 've found out as long as your arrow weight is close 15,20 gains. As long as you keep your shots 20 or under no problem.
  The excact weight somes form growing up in a compound age. Where when your shooting 300 FPS the more arrows are different the more nosable you can see it.
  I arrowed 36 bucks and unteen doe's with a self bow has well as way over to 100 ground hogs.
 What I'm saying is it dos'nt matter as long as you keep it close. I TRY KEEPING IT AS CLOSE AS I CAN BUT DO'NT GO OVER BOARD. What I'm saying is it really dos'nt matter with a slow self bow as long as you keep it 20 or under. Getting close is what hunting with a bows all about RIGHT. All my bucks have been under 18 most between 10 and 15 yards a couple around 5.
   If it don't shoot out of the bow I'm shooting at the time. I just save it untill I build a bow that it dose. If I can (if it fits)I give it away with the next bow I build someone. 
 IF IT SHOOTS OUT OF MY BOW I USE IT.

[H Rhodes]

I lean the same way as crooketarrow.  I think self bows and primitive bows don't absolutely require a bunch of exact weights and measures.  I like cane arrows and find them to be pretty agreeable  in bows of different weights and draw lengths.  I tend to make my cane arrows an inch or two longer than the store bought arrows I used to use.  Like the man said, if it won't shoot good out of one bow, it might shoot great out of a different one.  Make a bunch of them and shoot them till you have a quiver full of ones you like!   
  I don't shoot further than 25 or 30 yards when I am practicing and I wouldn't try a shot on a deer at over 20.  My arrow isn't fast enough for the deer to still be there, on shots over 20.   If you are going to be seeking precision, maybe you need to spine them and match them...  If you want arrows in a place as big as your hand at 20, then I think you can get it without all that.       

[Chicknlady]

lostarrow, you totally cleared that up, believe it or not...  I was hoping to eventually have a quiver full of nice-shooting arrows and not have to worry about which I pull out, rose, ash, whatever...  but it sounds like shoots of different woods can't hit the same spot without adjusting my "aim".  As a newbie archer, that's all I need  !

And thanks guys for the replies, and for having such a positive view of my skills!  To tell you the truth, I am brand new at this, and when I practice I stand at about 10 yards, and the last set of arrows I back off to 20 yards for fun.  Until I built these rose arrows, I was using over-spined aluminum shafts, which did OK, but never quite flew like these two do.   I've been doing alot of searches all summer on form and everything, and just go by trial and error...  I'd love to go to one of your guys' archery seminars or whatever and get some real instruction someday, but for now I'm having a ball just making my own stuff and playing!  My goal this year is to have a few more nice arrows, and get good enough close-up to do some stump shooting...  maybe a home-made 3D setup with some stuffed animals or something.  I might never try to shoot deer with a bow, actually recently bought my dream Savage .243 for that, can't wait!  Because I don't think I'll ever pull over 40 pounds.  But I'd love to eventually shoot the bow for squirrels, grouse, woodchucks, or porcupines.

Donald, I just checked my arrows and the fletching is all correct....  although I did offset the fletches on a few of the arrows, because it seemed like the goose feathers lay better like that  lol, but one of my two good arrows I messed up on the spacing some, and just about have room for a fourth feather!   And that shaft is the most "crooket" too ...   you guys are right, my little bow is very forgiving at ten yards  .

I will try to sand down my few "heavy" rose shafts, and see if I can't get them to shoot better, I'd love to have 4 or 5 that shoot similarly.  And once fall is here I'm back in the rose-thicket, and this time I know to select thicker stems, since most of the 100 or so I cut last winter were WAY too small.

[H Rhodes]

Oh, and what I forgot to say was "wow, those are great looking arrows!!"

[JackCrafty]

All the variables will drive you crazy but you are on the right track.  There is no substitute for simply making a bunch of arrows and trying them all, keeping the best, and duplicating the very best.

Rose shoots are very comparable to hardwoods like ash.  I encourage you to make arrows from all available materials.  You will find that you can mix the woods and not have to worry about which one you pull out of the quiver.  The more arrows you make, the more you have available to make a matched set with similar weights and spines.

The 1/2 inch deflection is a good rule of thumb for 40 to 50 pound self bows at 26 to 28 inch draws.

The better tuned your arrows are, the better you will shoot, end of story.  IMO, you cannot have arrows that are too perfect.   

[bowtarist]

Looks like you got a lot of good info here Chicknlady.  I just wanted to say that those arrows look super for a nebie or an advanced archer.  you should be proud.  Just  keep shooting.  If I have arrows that fly funny, I'll make a mark on them so I know which are which and I try to adjust my shot for the arrow.  Unless it just flys anywhichway. 
It appears you are doing great from here.  dpg

[Carson (CMB)]

"They actually shot from my bow straight, no wobbling in any direction... I've never seen that yet!"

Lots of good advice here.  But what you said there, shows me you got it! Once you see what good arrow flight looks like, then you can hunt it down.  Too many are the beginner that never sees good arrow flight!  All the best in your hunt!

[Chicknlady]

thanks, guys, so much for the kind words of encouragement!   And your comments and advice have been incredibly helpful.  lol,  although the arrows are a little rough-looking, I kinda like the primitiveness of them, and it's neater than all get-out that some actually shoot better than fancy store arrows!   I'm going to do as suggested, and just start making lots of arrows and see what they do, now that I'm starting to get a clue what I'm doing  .

One last question for now (sorry! ), for those of you who use pine pitch glue to fletch, do you mix charcoal in with your pitch?  I've made two batches of glue so far (one batch too stiff, the other too gooey, of course!   ) and it seems like using this would be really messy and nasty looking, unless you are incredibly neat and tidy.   I used super-glue on these arrows, but would like to try something more traditional.

Thanks again!

[lostarrow]

I don't use glue at all on my shoot shafts , never had a problem. Less fuss and definitely less mess. Just spiral wrap.Usually artificial sinew.