penetration with stone points

[mullet]

JD,I've sat back and read these and tried to keep an open mind about where you are coming from.And it seems like trieing to explain religion to a born again religious fanatic.You seem to hear what you want and then go back to your same argument no matter what facts or information anybody volunteers.I was hunting hogs with Wendsels,and the hog I killed in the picture had the tip  folded over where it hit the hip bone.
  The way you seem to want to compare steel to Obsidian and not bring other stone into the factor is kinda flawed.Even though a proper obsidian point on a HAND THROWN shaft didn't have any trouble bringing down Mastodon,and Mammoth.And thats a fact also.Numerous Archaeologist sites have proven it.
  With the logic behind your comparison's it would seem the only ethical way for all of us to hunt would be with powerful,compound bows with razor sharp steel,maybe retractable points? You know ,to better get by the ribs.And the make believe Indian toys we are hunting with should really be hanging on the wall.

[1/2primitive]

Eddie, I think I see where he is coming from and that's not what he meant. I've never hunted with stone points, so I don't know how well they will hold up, and I think that's part of Josh's hesitancy to stand behind the effectiveness of stone.
 Also, the 'sharpness' thing, there is not doubt about it, stone, particularly Obsidian, can break far sharper than steel can be. But as with my points, they are never as sharp as they could be, and so I think the steel points have an advantage for me at the moment (if I make the stone points) because my stone ones are not usually sharp enough. I need to work on how to sharpen them. 
     Sean

[mullet]

  Half,That's kinda the point I'm trying to get across.Too many factual sounding comments by people that haven't used stone points.And Elk and Moose is not the only tough big game animal.There ribs are just as far apart as they are wide.

[DanaM]

Justin you know quite well what I meant don't twist it around.  Stone vs. steel both well crafted, placed in the right spot are equally lethal. I think it comes down to a confidance issue if you have the confidence in yer equipment it does wonders to your mental outlook and and your own confidence. I don't think anyone can say stone points are more lethal than steel or vice versa. If their both well made and sharp and placed properly they will both kill efficiently. As to one being more primitive than the other there is no doubt stone preceeded metal but I'm willing to bet bone or ivory preceeded stone and a simple pointy stick preceeded all of them. And I do believe a field point(pointy stick) thru both lungs or the heart would prove as fatal as gut shooting them with a 7mm but neither would be efficient or ethical, Now if you choose to gut shoot your critters with a 7mm thats your choice. Over the years I've passed on many shots because I was doubtful of my ability to place the shot where I wanted but I could have flailed away hoping for the best like many do!

[Hillbilly]

Justin, I wouldn't hesitate at all to fling a good obsidian point at an elk, except the only ones around here at the moment were released into the woods by the national park service and are all wearing radio tracking collars  Obsidian is maybe not quite as durable as some stone, but is still makes a deadly, effective scary sharp point, which even in the event that it does break on a heavy bone, now has new razor-sharp broken edges to slice and dice through tissue and organs. There's sure nothing wrong with your knapping either-I saw a few of your points this weekend. Looked lethal to me.

[D. Tiller]

Nice points by the way! Just make sure you get someone to show you how to put a super sharp edge on them. Using antler also helps since it does not tend to dull the edge as much as you sharpen the point!

JD, I know a bunch of guys that use obsidian to hunt elk and when the connect with said animal its as good as bringing home the elk steak for dinner! But do hunt with what you feal most comfortable.

David T

[mullet]

    David,Where did you learn that about sharpening stone points.When it comes to fine edge work I don't see how you can tell the difference between copper and antler.I've been teased by more than one person on here about my copper "Dental tools" I use for putting an edge on.

[Justin Snyder]

Dana, I wasn't twisting it around at all. I said I agree and I meant it.  A cannon is no substitute for a good shot.  I can guarantee a heart shot with a field point is fatal in under 60 seconds, and ethical.  It is just not a guaranteed shoot, so we need to use stone points or broadheads to ensure a quick kill.  The point is still, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.  NO AMOUNT OF POINT OR SIZE OF CANNON CAN MAKE UP FOR A MISPLACED SHOT.  Justin

[DanaM]

LOL, mymymy funny how folks(me included) get worked up when discussing hunting issues

[mullet]

  Dana,Yea,And what's funny you can be discussing anything and Ethic's always comes into the discussion.And everybody has their own opinion about what is good or bad.

[DanaM]

Can't argue with you on that eddie, we agree to disagree all the time

[D. Tiller]

Mullet, I learned the sharpenning technique from Steve Allelie. Dont know why it seems to sharpen better but I think it has to do with the softness of the antler. The antler tends to crumble on its edges and takes of micro flakes when knapping. (?) I think the edge is not crushed as much when using the antler in the final sharpenning stages as copper would. To me though it just seem really sharp! 

David T

[Justin Snyder]

David, the ABO percussion tools are nice for obsidian because the super hard tools can put to much energy into the rock and work like a rock crusher.  As for pressure tools, I don't think it matters.  If you are finishing the edge, a nice sharp metal tool is about as nice as anything.  You remove all the rock that the tool touches anyway, so it cant really dull the edge.  Justin

[Coo-wah-chobee]

   Whose Steve Allelie ? Copper has the same consistency as fresh antler so it works the same on pressure flakin and ifn ya doin it correctly it dont crush the edge. ...bob

[D. Tiller]

Hmmm! Not sure about that Justin but will take a look into it.  Just seems that when I chip out a small arrowhead they do come out sharper with antler tines than with Copper.