Author Topic: An Arrow that Changed History  (Read 8106 times)

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Offline dmassphoto

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An Arrow that Changed History
« on: April 10, 2011, 02:27:12 pm »
Thought you guys might enjoy this link I found on a random search today....

http://bowsbladesandbattles.tripod.com/id46.html

It talks about the wounding of Henry V at Shrewsbury by a Welsh arrow to the face.

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2011, 10:47:44 pm »
Interesting, and thank you posting the address.

Where on earth do you get the idea that the arrow was Welsh. There is absolutely no evidence to support this. Henry Percy's archers were overwhelmingly from Cheshire and thus English.

It is thought that some Welsh from the Cheshire borders joined with Percy and if true they would have almost certainly been spear-men not archers. It is the south Welsh who were the renowned archers while the north Welsh were renowned spear-men.

Craig.

Offline dmassphoto

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2011, 01:30:18 pm »
Ahh, I never knew there was much of a difference in the North/South Welsh population.  I read it in a couple books a few years ago, so my memory may be hazy, but I always thought the archers at Shrewsbury were Welsh.  Either way, it would take an excellent archer to hit the Prince of England in the face as he was charging.

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2011, 08:11:34 pm »
Interesting, and thank you posting the address.

Where on earth do you get the idea that the arrow was Welsh. There is absolutely no evidence to support this. Henry Percy's archers were overwhelmingly from Cheshire and thus English.

It is thought that some Welsh from the Cheshire borders joined with Percy and if true they would have almost certainly been spear-men not archers. It is the south Welsh who were the renowned archers while the north Welsh were renowned spear-men.

Craig.

As usual you are well informed. But I would add that Percy was joined by members of Richard’s disbanded Cheshire archer bodyguard and there was Welsh influence in Chester, which had been part of Wales and was renowned for archery, and I believe a Welsh chieftain did show up with his archers.


Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2011, 10:30:09 pm »
Hi Bow-toxo,

Sorry but your history of Cheshire is wrong it was not Welsh and had not been for centuries. The Romans first conquered the area and made it part of Roman Britain, following the Roman withdrawal in the 5th Centuary the area became part of the Saxon kingdom of Mercia, which then merged into the larger Saxon Kingdom of England, (If one ignores the Danish Invasions).

Cheshire had not been Welsh since the days of the Mercian Saxon Kings when in 616, Æthelfrith of Northumbria defeated a Welsh army at the Battle of Chester, and as at the time of Shrewsbury the Welsh Princes were still prevalent in their country and were thus sworn Enemies of the English in Chester so I doubt that there was any Welsh influence in the city, (most marcher cities had laws against the Welsh even being within the City walls or even their side of Offa's Dyke). It is the English people of Cheshire who were renowned for their archery, Cheshire archers formed the basis of most English archery corps and were used as royal body guards etc, but at the time of Shrewsbury they had been fighting on Richards side against Henry IV and if accounts are true they loathed the man.

I have been unable to find mention of any Welsh archers only of Welsh local to the borders of Cheshire.

Craig.

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2011, 10:50:32 pm »
dmassphoto,

Quote
Ahh, I never knew there was much of a difference in the North/South Welsh population.  I read it in a couple books a few years ago, so my memory may be hazy, but I always thought the archers at Shrewsbury were Welsh.  Either way, it would take an excellent archer to hit the Prince of England in the face as he was charging.

I am a "small"  part south Welsh and lived for a number of years in mid Glamorgan part of the area where some of the fabled Welsh archers come from, It always amused me to hear and see the disdain that the South Welsh held the North Welsh in. Even down to the name they use for them which is Gog, a contraction of gogledd, pronounced gog-lee-eth which is Welsh for North. I have no idea what the North Welsh call the South Welsh I never lived there but must admit to much prefering the South and West Welsh accent to that of the North.

Quote
I always thought the archers at Shrewsbury were Welsh

I would imagine they are turning in their graves at being called Welsh.

Craig.


Offline ChrisM

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2011, 04:08:51 pm »
Changing tack somewhat, Hector was special guest at our club's annual mediaeval feast two years ago and chose the wounding and subsequent extraction of the bodkin as the subject for his speech. A talented orator, he kept us all spellbound for an hour covering all aspects of the injury and treatment and building up to a clever finale, the discovery of a contemporary description of the arrow extractor upon which he based his reproduction. After the speech he passed this remarkably well made object around the hall for us to handle. Unforgettable. I now feel quite privileged to use his perfect type 10's on my Welsh Class arrows.

Offline ChrisD

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 07:50:51 pm »
Hmmm - Interesting hypothesis in this link, but probably nonesense. Henry became king 10 years after the battle and was known to have done much carousing in the interim. His behaviour as king is all to do with careful image management combined with both piety and a desparate need to legitimise his hold of the crown.

First, 'penetrating head trauma' doesn't necessarily, or even particularly often, mean penetrating brain injury, on account of that organ being well protected inside a box with thick bone over vulnerable parts and thinner bone where lots of other protection exists. Second, the temporal lobe, as illustrated in the link, lies in the middle cranial fossa which creates a bulge to about half way down the orbit. In order to stick an arrow in it according to the type of injury being discussed ie a frontal strike, you either need to lose your eye, or if hit in the cheek, angle it upwards by at least 30 degrees (unlikely given that the arrow came from above and Henry was fighting up a hill at the time). In any case, it isn't six inches back. Third, if there was any penetration of the middle fossa resulting in a brain injury which could lead to the sort of stuff mentioned, there would have been a CSF leak (brain fluid). There are particular features of that kind of trauma that in this context, meningitis and death would have been pretty much certain no matter what anyone did. Finally, the lack of evidence of loss of consiousness goes against any direct brain injury.

I have thought about this injury often and have heard a couple of comments relating to the arrow being embedded in the skull or even the mandible(!). My own take on the descriptions is that it entered the cheek beside the nose probably along a more or less true horizontal line (Henry would still have had to have been looking up for an arrow to come down and strike in this way), went through the maxillary sinus and across the infratemporal fossa(below the middle fossa) losing energy as it did so and got itself stuck in the undersurface of petrous temporal bone , which is a long way back and certainly could be assessed as 6 inches if the cheek was swollen as it would have been. The petrous temporal bone is, as the name suggests very hard -in fact the hardest bone in the body and winkling an arrow out of it would certainly be tricky. The internal carotid artery would have traversed very near to the path of the arrow so survival was very fortunate indeed - interestingly, had the arrow hit beside the nose and gone up into the temporal lobe, it would probably have severed the internal carotid on its way!

Hats off to Bradmore - his actions give the lie to the idea that all medics of the time were a waste of space - although it has to be said that he was known to be unconventional and was under something of a cloud at the time he was called in.

C

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 01:31:56 am »
dmassphoto,
I would imagine they are turning in their graves at being called Welsh.

Craig.

 Another point that puzles me:The Black Prince, the Prince of WALES, chose a corps of Cheshire archers , not just from Cherter, but also from the environs, and they were liveried in GREEN AND WHite, the colors of WALES. His son, Richard II also used Cheshire archers as his bodyguard, again liveried in the Welsh colors, which were again used by the Tudors, from Wales. Might this be more than accidental ?

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 12:03:59 am »
bow-toxo,

Quote
Another point that puzles me:The Black Prince, the Prince of WALES, chose a corps of Cheshire archers , not just from Cherter, but also from the environs, and they were liveried in GREEN AND WHite, the colors of WALES. His son, Richard II also used Cheshire archers as his bodyguard, again liveried in the Welsh colors, which were again used by the Tudors, from Wales. Might this be more than accidental ?

To my knowledge (which of course is limited) the green/white livery for all welsh archers is a myth, If anyone has information to the contrary I would appreciate it if the information and its source were posted as a response here. The use of livery was to notify the observer who was lord of the mass of people. Far from being "Welsh Colours" I suggest that as the livery was chosen and payed for by the employing Lord the colours merely indicated that they were the Prince's men? Wales was responsible for raising his own contribution to any military venture, including equipping and maintaining the men raised.

As I understand it there are only two documented issues of such livery by the Black Prince, one in 1346, another in 1359. These issues were made to Archers raised by the Prince from Cheshire and Flintshire, adjoining counties, one English the other Welsh, but the Welsh one containing areas that once were part of Cheshire, (possibly the source of the Welsh archers in an area that is renowned for its Welsh spearmen) . So I would suggest that in the context of the Black Prince his use of Green and White served to signify that they were his archers from that area of the country, not that they were specifically Welsh or Cheshire-men. I would add that I do not believe that there is any evidence of the archers from the South Welsh counties (who provided the majority of the Welsh archers to the English Forces), specifically wearing green and White.

In addition Prince of Wales is only one title usually held by the English Crown Prince, he is also usually Duke of Cornwall (the Cornish being another "Celtic" people) and Earl of Chester.  Cheshire was also for a time promoted to the rank of a Principality so the holder of the title (King Richard II) was " Prince of Chester". The only significance here is that Flintshire and Chestershire as it was or Cheshire as it is are/were both lands under the control of the Prince and adjacent to each other.

Craig.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 01:00:38 am by CraigMBeckett »

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 10:12:53 pm »
To my knowledge (which of course is limited) the green/white livery for all welsh archers is a myth, If anyone has information to the contrary I would appreciate it if the information and its source were posted as a response here. The use of livery was to notify the observer who was lord of the mass of people. Far from being "Welsh Colours" I suggest that as the livery was chosen and payed for by the employing Lord the colours merely indicated that they were the Prince's men? Wales was responsible for raising his own contribution to any military venture, including equipping and maintaining the men raised.
Craig.

Craig;  You may be right about the colours. They are the Welsh flag colours today, as a green and white background to the red dragon of Cadwallader. I’m not sure how they were chosen.
I don’t know that they were liveries before the Black Prince, the first Prince of Wales. Btw. My information is that Richard III’s green and white liveried Cheshure archers were recruited from Wales and even Ireland as well as Cheshire. It is now possible to look at a list of their names.

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 11:24:17 pm »
Erick,

Quote
Craig;  You may be right about the colours. They are the Welsh flag colours today, as a green and white background to the red dragon of Cadwallader. I’m not sure how they were chosen.
I don’t know that they were liveries before the Black Prince, the first Prince of Wales. Btw. My information is that Richard III’s green and white liveried Cheshure archers were recruited from Wales and even Ireland as well as Cheshire. It is now possible to look at a list of their names.


Richard III was a considerable time after both the pacification of Wales and the original Norman Conquest of Ireland, for generations both peoples had served English Monarchs, and given the known abilities of the Welsh and the statute imposed practice with the bow by the Irish (similar requirements to those imposed on the English) it is not surprising that people of ability were found there. I would suggest that by the time of Richard III the name "Chershire Archers" owed more to custom than to a statement of the origin of the members of the corps.

WRT the Welsh Flag, the green and white field comes from the Tudor colours while as you say the Red dragon is the dragon of Cadwalladr (No "e" before the final "r") king of Gywnedd during the 7th C. The flag was used by Henry Tudor at the Battle of Bosworth, or Bosworth Field if you prefer, where he defeated Richard III (and his multinational Cheshire Archers), and proclaimed himself Henry VII. The Flag was "carried in state to St Pauls, and later the Tudors included it in their Royal Arms.

Where can the names be found?

Craig.

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 12:07:50 am »
Craig    Sorry, I typed Richard III when I meant Richard II. The archers from Ireland were not necessarily Irish, but may have been English settlers who had an archery militia there. There is a recent group in England that researches military ancestors and I saw one posting with detailed information on Cheshire archers. I don’t recall the name of the group.

                                                                          Erik

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: An Arrow that Changed History
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2011, 08:53:53 am »
Erik,

Thanks for the answer will have to have another look around.

Craig.