Author Topic: What is "Warbow"  (Read 106682 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yeomanbowman

  • Member
  • Posts: 283
    • warbowwales
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2007, 05:30:55 pm »
Well said J.D.

So based on actual evidence the basic design characteristics of an English War Bow would be the following?

1) Typically over 90# draw weight with many well over 100# being drawn 30" to 32"?
2The bow bends throughout it's entire length?
3) It is typically a single stave but there are examples of backing being used?
4) Yew was the wood of choice but there were examples of other woods like elm being used?
5) The cross section was oval/rounded. Not a high stacked belly or a flat back right?

Help me nail this down. Bring facts and evidence to the table.
)

I think Jaro is right on the money with his observations/point.  To this I would add...
1.  Dave has an interesting point about whether earlier EWB’s were lower weight.  The simple answer is we cannot be sure.  However, to me it seems very unlikely that many sub 100Lb bows were at Crecy some 200 years before the Mary Rose sank.  Bishop Lattimer, writing in 1549, lamented the decline in English archery.
"The art of shooting hath been in times past much esteemed in this realm. It is a gift of God that He hath given to us to excel all other nations."  From his use of the past tense I infer that well shot heavy military longbows were less commonplace in Tudor times and certainly does not represent a zenith in strong shooting, in fact the contrary.  I am convinced that it the MR archers we are looking at the crème yet still of a diminished gene pool.
3.  If one asks 'What is "Warbow" then the simple historically based answer is laminates are ruled out.  The  English warbow should be a self-bow made from period woods.  Staves do not need to be expensive and can be purchased in board form to make into a very serviceable bow, maybe not as fast as a laminate, but remember we are deliberately (and proudly) shooting an anachronism.  There is evidence of backed warbows during their dying days, so I think these must be accepted, too.  JB’s (Alan's?) point about laminates giving the experience of shooting in the heavy English bow is very valid and they are great for roving.  However, I feel that what can be learnt in regards to how warbows performed in the past is limited.  It's a bit like making historical amour out of titanium as it's corrosion-free, stronger and lighter.  Yes, laminates gives the general feel but just keep in mind they should theoretically perform better than most Self-bows as the stresses of each facet of a bows section can be catered for. 
5.  A white wood bow will really benefit from a flatter belly.  If we can work that out I'm sure as hell sure that medieval bowyers did too.  Conjecture?  Yes, but so is all theory as to white bow sections in the medieval period as we have no examples.
 Again I would stress that these are my personal views and welcome the contributions of heavy laminate shooters and these points are to help define an EWB, not to exclude anyone.  There are place to post any sort of primitive bow here anyway.
Cheers,
Jeremy 
 



sagitarius boemoru

  • Guest
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2007, 05:35:20 pm »
This density is unlike any ash you have seen. Once it starts to sink in water its the wood. It has to be made narrow, due to mass, with different front taper than yew. They dont follow the string, we get around 1 - 1 1/2´´ of follow after some use.

Its all on bowyer.

Jaro

Offline Kviljo

  • Member
  • Posts: 488
  • Archaeologist, Antitheist
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2007, 05:55:15 pm »
Got any width/thickness measures? I've tried some high-stacked ash elbs, but none survived past the first 20 full draws ::)
I don't know the density of the ash in the bow I mentioned, but it has close to 1cm thick growthrings at least. And I really cant see how it would survive being much thicker without gaining too much stringfollow.

A close to flat belly is definitely a must though.

sagitarius boemoru

  • Guest
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2007, 06:22:56 pm »
Growthrings do not tell. You have to really measure density.
32 mmX28mm  give easy 100# + . They do not seem to break.  I adviced my friend to start with 35 mm width and bow was 140# + and he had to reduce width because we did not have anybody able to draw it.
I made one 74´´ / 75# last week it was only 30 mm wide and  not even close to that dense material we use for heavy bows.

Jaro

Offline heavybow

  • Member
  • Posts: 235
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2007, 08:19:20 pm »
Jaro how about yew backed with hickery does that count as a warbow.I know that pip builds them that way? marlon

Offline 1/2primitive

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,026
  • Bible believing Christian
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2007, 08:43:14 pm »
All right, referring to a point brought up earlier, I would say that if there are any variations (wood, size, draw length, or draw weight) the bow should be considered just a English style bow, not an actual English war bow. Would you agree?
And I really want to know exactly what a longbow is, would it be simply a d-cross sectioned, bending in the handle bow or what?
      Sean
*edit other than ash and elm, which have been proven to have been used.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 12:28:38 am by 1/2primitive »
Dallas/Fort Worth Tx.

Lloyd

  • Guest
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2007, 10:23:41 pm »
I'll say this about the ash that Jaro is using. I got some ash arrow shafts from Jaro last year that are heavier, tighter grained and spine way higher than the best ash I have ever found in the States. I really think that Eastern European ash may be better than anything we have here, at least better than anything I've ever seen.

Offline Kviljo

  • Member
  • Posts: 488
  • Archaeologist, Antitheist
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2007, 11:26:39 pm »
Growthrings do not tell. You have to really measure density.
32 mmX28mm  give easy 100# +
Jaro

Alright :)  Must be a bit denser than the wood I've tried. Pretty hefty! I'll have to measure some pieces.

I've got a 76" 30x25mm which is only 45 pounds. It has a way too round belly though. 3" stringfollow ::)

Then the question arises: what density ash and elm was in England 500 years ago?

sagitarius boemoru

  • Guest
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2007, 06:51:30 am »
Since eastern england is basically covered with this stuff, they could go through many pieces of wood to sellect a good one.

Jaro

SimonUK

  • Guest
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2007, 11:02:25 am »
Since eastern england is basically covered with this stuff, they could go through many pieces of wood to sellect a good one.

Jaro

This was one of the points I make on the old warbow forum - ash is so common in the UK, I'd be surprised if they didn't have enough to make flatbows. Although I appreciate we have no evidence of them.

Offline Kviljo

  • Member
  • Posts: 488
  • Archaeologist, Antitheist
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2007, 11:24:57 am »
The problem with flatbows is that they are much more time-consuming to make than narrow longbows.

Which is the youngest flatbow in Europe anyway?

SimonUK

  • Guest
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2007, 05:52:44 pm »
The problem with flatbows is that they are much more time-consuming to make than narrow longbows.

Which is the youngest flatbow in Europe anyway?

Good point kviljo ... probably very old. I think Bagskytt was saying that the Hedeby or Nydham bows included one of a white wood and it was narrow.

sagitarius boemoru

  • Guest
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2007, 08:03:50 pm »
Only one of Hedeby bows is of elm and its flatter than the rest.

J.

Offline Kviljo

  • Member
  • Posts: 488
  • Archaeologist, Antitheist
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2007, 09:25:14 pm »
Yep, the one of elm from Hedeby has the same design as the rest from yew.

It is thinner, but has the same width as the ones from yew. Well, actually the thickness isn't that different - it is thicker than one of the six yew bows.

SimonUK

  • Guest
Re: What is "Warbow"
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2007, 07:03:47 am »
I wonder if there could be a cultural element?  i.e. that the 'European bow' of the time was the narrow stacked longbow. Just like the different tribes in America had different styles.