Author Topic: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!  (Read 24458 times)

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Offline ohma2

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2013, 12:31:20 pm »
agree with papy and gordon build and shoot what you enjoy . but i will say the fastest bows ive made were all recurves. also agree with pat the wood bow world is alot different now since alot of great books were pened and  the net came along.

Offline Weylin

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2013, 02:15:53 pm »
I'm pretty sure I understand how recurves improve the string angle on  shorter bow but I'm not sure I quite get the science behind how a recurve makes a bow faster. Could any of you who believe that recurves are faster please explain in clearly or point me towards a good explanation? I don't say this cynically, I would really be interested in hearing a convincing explanation because I find myself fumbling around this topic in conversation fairly often.

 That being said, I think that I appreciate the fact that this issue isn't totally clear cut. One thing I like about the world of wooden bows is the incredible diversity of styles and designs that we see. If there was a clear difference between recurves and straight bows then the vast majority of us would only be making recurves but as it stands we make all kinds of bows and they all somehow manage to get the job done.

Offline Weylin

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2013, 02:27:42 pm »
Cut TMK a little slack. He wrote this years ago and just admitted that he didn't know what he was on when he wrote it. I think the conversation has moved beyond the original post and is now just discussing the supposed benefits of recurves.

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2013, 03:15:00 pm »
Quote
A recurve bow has tips that curve away from the archer when the bow is strung. By definition, the difference between recurve and other bows is that the string touches a section of the limb when the bow is strung. A recurve bow stores more energy and delivers energy more efficiently than an equivalent straight-limbed bow, giving a greater amount of energy and speed to the arrow. A recurve will permit a shorter bow than the simple straight limb bow for a given arrow energy and this form was often preferred by archers in environments where long weapons could be cumbersome, such as in brush and forest terrain, or while on horseback.
Recurved limbs also put greater strain on the materials used to make the bow, and they may make more noise with the shot. Extreme recurves make the bow unstable when being strung. An unstrung recurve bow can have a confusing shape and many Native American weapons, when separated from their original owners and cultures, were incorrectly strung backwards and destroyed when attempts were made to shoot them.[1]
From Wikipedia.
Weylin, the science behind the recurve-

When you string a normal bow, the string is attached at the ends of the limb, and does NOT contact the limb in ANY way along its length. Therefore the length of the bow remains constant during the draw, resulting in the weight increasing in a exponential curve.

When you string a recurve, the string contacts the limb. It shortens the bow due to that contact- Diagrams are far easier than words.
I will draw them while I eat...

Anyway, A recurved bow lengthens while it is drawn. This results in higher-early-draw weight, and lower full-draw weight. If you straighten out a recurved bow, it will be weaker- the limbs which were reflexed are now straight, resulting in them being more flexible.
A recurve bow-limb is stiffer than a normal bow limb of the same weight and length, because it has reflex near the tip, and the tips do not bend, resulting in what would be a longer bow. A molly bow is similar to a recurve, but because it does not have the early draw weight, it stores less energy. More or less, a recurved bow lengthens when drawn to compensate for string angle rising, resulting in little to no stack, storing more energy than a non-recurve bow.
To be continued.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline dragonman

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2013, 03:50:51 pm »
I like recurves because they always end up with a smoother draw due to the early draw weight.
The other benefit I find is the lower string angle which also reduces stacking and provides for more leverage effect....in the same way that an ordinary lever allows one to lift more weight than he could normally handle.

ts true though that if the materials are unable to take the added stress of the  recurves, then the recurves will make the bow take excessive set.

just my humble opinions....thought I'd throw in my twopence worth...


'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2013, 03:59:29 pm »
I like recurves because they always end up with a smoother draw due to the early draw weight.
The other benefit I find is the lower string angle which also reduces stacking and provides for more leverage effect....in the same way that an ordinary lever allows one to lift more weight than he could normally handle.

ts true though that if the materials are unable to take the added stress of the  recurves, then the recurves will make the bow take excessive set.

just my humble opinions....thought I'd throw in my twopence worth...
You have a great point. But a deflex recurve is a pretty dang good bow.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline dragonman

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2013, 04:18:19 pm »
yes Squirrell  I agree....I would include this in my defenition of recurve, its a just  a long recurved limb....where the whole limb is  recurved
'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2013, 04:40:02 pm »
yes Squirrell  I agree....I would include this in my defenition of recurve, its a just  a long recurved limb....where the whole limb is  recurved
A whole recurved limb is called reflexed, I think. But don't quote me on that.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2013, 06:10:40 pm »
Cut TMK a little slack. He wrote this years ago and just admitted that he didn't know what he was on when he wrote it. I think the conversation has moved beyond the original post and is now just discussing the supposed benefits of recurves.

Eh, I deserve it anyway I'm sure,  ;D. If I recall I was trying to open a discussion of exactly how a recurve works, in a not so elegant way, or my understanding of one at the time at least. I have no idea where I got "shorter bows are faster" though,  :o. My current understanding of recurves, and especially contact recurves, is that they have a more even force draw curve, with more early draw weight than a flatbow. The limbs have to bend more to reach the same brace height (bending more means storing more energy). In the first 10 - 15 inches or so of draw the string is touching the limbs. When the string lifts off the limbs, the draw weight stops increasing as fast, (like they have effectively "become a longer bow") resulting in a smoother draw. And of course the string angle of the recurves adds to this as well, but they are both a factor, string angle alone is not responsible for the smooth draw of a recurve I think. The increased speed is a result of the increased early draw weight, smoother force draw curve (due to string lifting off recurves at near full draw), and leverage from good string angle imo. Do I got it right yet? LOL I guess I will check back in a couple years to see how I have embarrassed myself further....  ;D
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline DuBois

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2013, 10:13:10 pm »
Discussions of this type are awesome and as a new guy it is an opportunity to pick some brains and see if I am even near any of the same thinking of some more seasoned folks. Of course, some brains at some times may be a little more shall we say, uh elevated (TMK). I am just glad you made the post so I could read and learn. I have yet to make a real recurve other than just mildly flipped tips so it is something I am wanting to do and curious about the actual benefits of. Thanks everybody. Doob

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2013, 10:18:31 pm »
some brains at some times may be a little more shall we say, uh elevated (TMK).

I honestly think you may be giving me too much credit,... by stating I have brains at all, :). After re-reading this thread just now, there really were a lot of great replies and insight/info...
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline DuBois

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2013, 10:30:20 am »
some brains at some times may be a little more shall we say, uh elevated (TMK).

I honestly think you may be giving me too much credit,... by stating I have brains at all, :). After re-reading this thread just now, there really were a lot of great replies and insight/info...
Well, you make some awesome bows so you must have something on the ball. Keep em comin bro. ;D

Offline dragonman

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Re: RECURVES ARE NOT FAST!
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2013, 04:02:09 pm »
Toomanykots...I removed my rashly made reply, I should've read the whole thing better before chimming in......sorry about that....It  is a good thread and its good you started it....and its very good you are a humble guy...

Dave
'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......