HHB for ELB?

[The Gopher]

I have a really really good piece of HHB that is very straight and about 80" long. I want to make an ELB that is about 40 to 45 lbs. I was thinking 70" NTN.

ELB's taper the whole length don't they? what shoudl the mid;imb thickness be for this bow, don't know much about HHB in this design, thanks,

Dan

[bcbull]

don it will work iv presently got a war bow in the works  man id use that stave to it s full potational as 80 in good hhb  staves are as rare as hens teeth  brock

[Del the cat]

I havn't used HHB, but from what I've heard you should be fine at that sort of draw weight. Make it as tall as you are plus maybe an inch or two.
Yes they taper gently in width and depth all the way from the handle. For an ELB don't be tempted to cut away the handle at all or add an arrow shelf.
Keep it smooth and sweet, you can have it a tad stiffer in the handle if you want, but that's moving towards the later 'target style Victorian longbows'.  Even TBB vol 1 makes the Yew "longbow" in a very American style .
(Have a look at my website for a couple of examples, tillered slightly differently)... I've just noticed the website symbols under our avatars.
I can take some dimensions off mine if you want to give you a 'rough it out' start point.
Del

[The Gopher]

Thanks Del that might help if i had a starting point. don't worry I won't cut in the handle at all or have a shelf, Although i want to make that just because i havn't made one yet, i also want to shoot it at a "longbow competition" at a reniassance festival, so i want it to be pretty accurate. 

Here are questions i have:

1. Should i follow the "5/8ths" rule or is that a bunch of mularky.
2. Horn nocks were used on the war bows so that the string wouldn't squish the wood nock right? At only 40 to 45 pounds and using HHB instead of Yew i don't need horn nocks unless i just liked the way they look, do you always use horn nocks on an ELB out of tradition?
3. Not a question...i noticed the "longbow" in TBB1 too, thought it strange.
4. is the back profile a straight line from handle to nocks, like a really narrow pyramid bow but with deep belly instead of flat belly?

thanks, Dan.

[Del the cat]

1. The 5/8th rule.. I've never bothered to measure one of mine, but I'd guess they are nearer equal width to depth than that, for a low draw weight bow (or a kids bow) you need to go thinner.
  I'll post some figures later this evening.
2. I would only do horn nocks if you want to. I personally think they are totally unecessary, certainly in anything under 90#. They probably had plenty of horn and plenty of time on their hands, in the army there was doubtless plenty of waiting around...march wait...march wait... don't s'pose it's changed much except for the weapons!
4. Yes, pretty much like a very very narrow pyramid.
I'll go and take some measurements!
Del

[Del the cat]

75# @ 28" (about 90# at 31.5"). Self nocks
Overall length 70 1/2" (About same as my height).
I'll measure down from one nock every 5". I'll measure in mm as it's a more convenient unit. (dimensions to nearest .25)
5/8 is 0.625 I'll work out the ratio at each measurement just out of interest
Width    Depth       ratio (Depth/Width)
19         15.5        0.81
20.5      16.25       0.79
23.25    18            0.77
26.5      21            0.79
28         22.5         0.80
31         24.5         0.79   (slight increase in depth here for a small knot).
32.5      24            0.75
39.5      35            0.89  (this is pretty much the centre, and is V fat because of a huge knot, see below)
Yes that ratio seems to indicate it is a longbow , although some would say it isn't because it has no horn nocks . (I don't spose they say it to my face if I had the bow in my hand)



Here's a rough old pic of it unstrung, but it shows the shape of the stave and the self nock.

hope this is useful I can take some decent pics if you want.
You can see I've used a continuous loop string rather than the more traditional bowyers knot on one end...
Del

[Badger]

  Dan, the 5/8 rule is what makes an elb an elb, you don't have to follow that to make a nice bow but if you want to make an elb style you will need to adhere to that. HHB is a pretty dense wood and your target draw weight is 45#, I don't think I would make that bow any longer than 64". I would use a tiller that bends just ever so slightly in the handle area as to be almost inperceptable by sight or feel and gradually increase the bend as it get further from the handle. I would guess your bow will be no more than 1 1/4 wide maybe 1 1/8 at this length and draw weight. Projected mass for a bow like that using an elyptical tiller should be right around 16 oz. Steve

[Del the cat]

  Dan, the 5/8 rule is what makes an elb an elb, you don't have to follow that to make a nice bow but if you want to make an elb style you will need to adhere to that. HHB is a pretty dense wood and your target draw weight is 45#, I don't think I would make that bow any longer than 64". I would use a tiller that bends just ever so slightly in the handle area as to be almost inperceptable by sight or feel and gradually increase the bend as it get further from the handle. I would guess your bow will be no more than 1 1/4 wide maybe 1 1/8 at this length and draw weight. Projected mass for a bow like that using an elyptical tiller should be right around 16 oz. Steve

Unless he's only 5'4" I don't see how a 64" bow is going to look anything like an ELB
I don't want to argue about what makes an ELB and ELB, but I'd say it wants to be about as tall as the archer, a flatish back and a curved belly.
As someone once said 'Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools'
Some of these 'rules' are based around Victorian target bows... I prefer your good old American 'Duck test' (was that Mc Carthy? In the Communist witch hunt?)
If it looks like an ELB and shoots like an ELB it is an ELB!
Like I said, I don't see how anyone can really justify my Yew bow not being called an ELB just because it doesn't have horn nocks?
Del
(I hope this doesn't sound confrontational and agressive... It's not s'posed to, I'm a old softy pussy cat )

[Badger]

Del, I understand what you are saying. The flight shooting community had a standard written for them by the english long bow society. I think an elb can go as short as 60". The reason I recomended 64" max is because of the draw weight and the density of the wood. You can only make a bow so narrow and then it becomes unstable. If you were to make the bow very long like a warbow or even 72" long it would tend to shoot really doggy. he could make the bow as long as 72" but if so he will want to make the tiller even more elyptical and the center section even stiffer. This may look more elb like. In the old pictures you can see how the tillers were often exagerated in being elyptical on the target bows as opposed to being very circular on the heavy war bows. When using heavy woods for low draw weight bows the limbs tend to get too narrow on elbs and loose side stabiltiy and start twisting. Thats why you move the bend out further on the limb so you can keep that section a bit wider and not loose the stability. All we do is throw out different opinions and the guy makin the bow does it how ever he feels like anyway LOL. Steve

[Marc St Louis]

The problem he is going to have is getting such a low draw weight out of the HHB.  The bow will be quite slim.  I made an ELB out of HHB a few months ago that was 64" long and pulled 60# @ 27", physical dimensions were quite small.  Lateral stability was a bit of an issue as well but not serious

[The Gopher]

lots to think about