service berry character sapling tillering advice requested

[servicebeary]

Well, I'm finally trying to live up to my screen name, I've already got the bear part in the freezer... So I started a 1 1/4" serviceberry sapling last night and I got it to the tillering stick in a few hours.  It's a 62" no-nock to no-nock D bow, and it has a lot of character.  Just wonder how most guy tiller bows like this.  It's so wavy, snakey, and twisted that a grid and lines down the side are pretty much useless.  I've resulted to having my tillering stick in the vise, and pulling it a bit to try and see where it's bending.  Pretty tough for my 3rd bow (well my second one's sinew is still drying).  It also has a ton of knots and the grain completely twisted around the bow.  I'm just ignoring that to see what this stuff can take.  I've got bigger pieces, but I want to train myself on small saplings because I'm going on a 3 month expedition soon, and I may only find 1" ers.  If it starts to come apart from twisted grain I'll probably throw a layer of sinew on it, but I wanna see if I can do it without. 
-only 62", but my weird draw is only 25", and I'm 6' 4" go figure...   

[Gordon]

It's tough to accurately guage the tiller of such a character laden bow by only looking at the limbs bend. What I do is make sure that the belly is following the contours of the back while the limb is evenly tapered in thickness - making necessary adjustments for certain kinds of knots. That's a tall order, however, if this is only your third bow.

[youngbowyer33]

what i try and to is completely forget about any snaking or waving (but remember knots, and also keep in mind uniform thickness) and slightly blur my eyes and floor tiller it. From there i go to long string trying to look straight at it so i can't see the waviness as much, and this whole time i am trying to get a decent brace height because i feel that most of the bumps sort of come out when braced. then i tiller normally from there. but realllly good advise i think is to just tiller it as normally as you can, and trying to keep a uniform thickness, giving more wood where knots are.JMO

[George Tsoukalas]

Try to draw and imaginary line through the limb to check its curvature. See if my site helps you.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
Jawge

[servicebeary]

oh yah!  I forgot about the lines that don't necessarily stay on the side of the bow.  I'm seriously thinking of throwing one thick layer of elk sinew on it for added strength (it was only a 1 1/4 inch sapling at the big end) and to give me more room for error.  I managed to bob and weave around most of the knots though so it's really tempting to try and make it work with no backing. 
  --anyone leave the belly with the pithy center now all the way removed?  Will that 1/8" center weaken the belly enough to matter?  I thought I'd heard someone talk about filling it with glue? 
 
    many thanks for the advice, -nick

[servicebeary]

well, I heat treated the belly and was wondering if anyone had sinew backed over the top of knots without nocking them down flush?  I mean, in order to maintain the backs integrity I have knots that come up about 1/8" and getting them lower would cut into the back.  This 1 1/4" sapling naturally has a pretty high crown so I'm worried it'll brake if I trim em.  I would also like to have humps in the sinew for added character, but just wonder if it would cause problems

[Gordon]

Why do you think you need to sinew back the bow? Serviceberry is strong in tension and normally would not need to be backed. At only 1 1/4" wide it's the belly you need to worry about. I'd keep the belly as flat as possible and watch out for pin knots that are horizontal to the belly.

[servicebeary]

thanks for the concern Gordon   I was thinking of backing it because there are a lot of large knots on the back ( I did compensate by leaving it thicker, and I layed it out to keep them away from the edges, at least by 1/3" away from the edges) and then there's the ding factor, but I guess the back growth ring is a solid 1/8" thick, so maybe a ding in the back isn't a big deal?  Then there's the fact that I may want the extra poundage, but if you think it's a go without sinew, then that sounds great   because I don't really enjoy that sticky process anymore than a needle in the eye anyhow  
   oh, and so you think that pithy 1/8" heart is going to be a problem?  I've got it almost perfectly flat, heat treated and the edges are radius'd.  I also managed to avoid virtually all knots that would weaken the belly, I just had to induce a little twist to get it done   I got lucky too, because I just went to town on it, figured it would end up a kids bow, but it actually allowed me to find a good bow inside   Now I've just got to tiller the beast
  thanks again, -nick 

[Gordon]

If a large knot decides to give way I don't think sinew is going to stop it. Just keep them proud like you have done. The pith shouldn't cause you any problems. I'm surprised by the thick growth ring. The serviceberry that grows around here has thin rings. Good luck!

[juniper junkie]

would like to see pics of your progress. sounds interesting.

[servicebeary]

thanks, wil try to get some pics on.  Yah, the bigger pieces I have, have tiny rings, maybe I wasn't looking close enough and there's more, but I thought there was a 1/8" ring.  I was surprised too...the light in my shop isn't very good, so I'll double check that
              Hey Juniperjunkie, do you build unbacked juniper bows?  I have access to tons of it here in Idaho, it's next on my list.

[zenmonkeyman]

Far be it from me to contradict Gordon, who is one of my personal heros, but as a nube myself who has 2 successful serviceberry bows going, I would definitely back with rawhide.  Sinew sounds like too much work, and serviceberry doesn't need performance enhancing, but I'm pretty sure I would have broken both of mine during tillering without the rawhide to backstop the hinges I made along the way.  Insurance against dings and knots is nice, too.

[servicebeary]

thanks Zen, I think I'll take the middle of the two approaches.  I will tiller along and if by some miracle I'm doing things right so I don't get a bunch of set, I'll go unbacked, but otherwise I'll throw on a layer of sinew.  I think sinew is easier for me since I've already got tons of it and I've applied it before.  Rawhide would require driving to get dog chews?  then soaking, flattening, gluing, and finally thinning.  You sure it's easier?  Sounds like it takes some skill to thin the stuff..??  hmm, now you've tempted me to try rawhide.  Have you got a quick, shortcut for it?  I don't like the idea of having to thin the stuff, but I don't want to weigh down my bows either...
  -nick

[juniper junkie]

I have made un-backed juniper bows, but I really like sinew backing it. it speeds up the bow and prevents it from taking set. tricky to find some juniper without knots and straight. when you do find one, immediatley go down and buy a lottery ticket   If you have a native arts store nearby, then go look for rawhide for drums. you can get a whole hide for about $50-60 bucks to do several  bows. it can be cut with scissors. I use ace bandages to wrap it with. get the kind that stick to itself. it is a lot easier than sinew. plus it is thinner than the dog chews and wont rob energy from the bow. I have several serviceberry staves that I want to start on, cant wait to see how yours turns out.

[servicebeary]

great news, I'll be off to shoshone idaho to the rock/native arts store.  It's a great place where you can get pieces of obsidian the size of a bowling ball for about $15 since there's a nice source fairly close.  I bought a nice flute there and if anyone has the rawhide they will.  Have you tried heat treating the bellies to help fight set on juniper yet?  I'm in the process of putting about 5 bows, 1 black locust, 2 hackberry, 1 or 2 service berries and maybe an osage over the coals at the same time.  I'm really impressed with heat treating and so I plan on always using it on my bows.  And, if I do several at a time, it's dead easy.  8 more days before my serviceberry is back to ambient humidity, and 6 days till the sinew on my 49" osage is dry.  I can barely wait!  I already had the osage pulling 23" so I will have it done just in time to tiller the serviceberry    I'm going to have to go harvesting staves like yesterday if I keep at it like this.  I guess that's just another reason to buy dry ebay staves, although it's soooo much more satisfying going and harvesting themselves. 
   ---how big are your serviceberries?